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I assume the guy from the magazine also works for free? After all, it's worth all his time to have his name on the list of editors and such inside the cover and and be able to use that name as a reference for his "real job", right?
First off--I do work a lot for free. But it's for non-profits that I share an interest in and my work contributes to their cause/efforts. That's charity. I might add it's a great way to build a portfolio and get recognition of your work too.
But when a for profit entity contacts you for work, but only want's to pay "with references", they are just taking advantage of you. I think it's just such a double standard that they want to be paid for their work, but don't want to pay you....that's just greedy...
And it's NOT greedy to ask to be compensated for your time, expenses and skill.
Posted 37 months ago.
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Thanks capt Kodak for the prompt reply.
I want to ask how to develop a portfolio ?
Posted 37 months ago.
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No. You only hurt yourself and other photographers by working for free.
Posted 37 months ago.
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www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=build+your+own+photogra...
Posted 37 months ago.
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Free is a four lettered word!!! As Kurt says it hurts everyone else.
If editors work for free them maybe I might and we could swap jobs and pay!
Posted 37 months ago.
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When they tell me they will give me credit for my photo but can't pay, I tell them I would much rather have my name on a check than a photo credit. I have had photos published in magazines, books, and other media and no one has ever called me and told me they saw my name and wanted to have me work for them. If it is a business and they don'[t want to pay, they don't get the image. As it was stated, they don't work for free. If I don't make anything by giving them my photo and I don't make anything by not giving it to them, it is much less effort to not give it to them.
If you want to build your portfolio and get some tear sheets, offer your services to some small not-for-profits that you believe in their cause. They don't have the budget and wouldn't be buying photos any and usually welcome good images for their brochures and websites. Then you aren't giving anything for free, but donating your services.
Just counter back and offer and tell them you can't donate your work but here is your price if they are interested. You have nothing to loose because they have offered you nothing. If they don't accept, you are no worse off than you were before.
Posted 37 months ago.
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There are magazines that pay better than others. Lower paying ones are usually easier to work for. But someone who asks you to work for free and tells you that you should do it to build your name is someone you should distance yourself from!
Pro bono(free) work should be done for some "cause" and it should be of a nature to allow you to do your best work.
Building a portfolio is hard work. I built my first commercial portfolio by asking friends with businesses to come and shoot at their places of business. Not one even asked for anything in exchange. I also got some small jobs and continued to test on my own in studio and out. Building a portfolio and a business is hard work and takes persistence. Just avoid the leeches!!
Posted 37 months ago.
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Never work for free for a company that will profit from your work.
Posted 37 months ago.
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How do you ever put up your prices - say NO, they're purely exploiting you and your creative talent.
You're not losing a client, because they're never going to be one as they don't pay for photography
Posted 37 months ago.
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You will enjoy this Craig's List post www.craigslist.org/about/best/aus/558260167.html I'm a fabulously wealthy photographer / artist making money hand over fist. Here's what I need:
A mechanic to overhaul my custom '57 Chevy.
A maid to clean my house on a regular basis
A doctor to perform some minor surgery on me.
A band to perform theme music for me where ever I go.
A carpenter and electrician to build an extra wing on my sweet house in East Austin.
A nanny to watch my spoiled kids.
Of course there will be no pay involved. In return for your services you will get FULL CREDIT on my website, AND you can add all of this work to your PORTFOLIO! If you ask me, this is an absolutely awesome deal!
I hope to have you work for me soon!
Posted 37 months ago.
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These folks do this because they can find photogs that are portfolio building to do it for free. Whenever someone asks me something like this at a for profit company I always ask them if they work for free. The answer is no so I tell them no! Or I ask the 2nd question on why then do you want me to do this for free?
As has been said free is ok and good for non profits, charities, etc. but not something like this.
Posted 37 months ago.
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I have no problem working for free on occasion but when an organization approaches you with free in mind you can almost guarantee twice the work you expect and you will still be doing it for free.
Posted 37 months ago.
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You can make your own portofolio. Lots of people do.
I only work for free if everybody involved is also working for free. Your knowledge and time is worth something - don't let anyone take it, especially if they're getting paid!
Just say no.
Posted 37 months ago.
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I worked for free at the start, to build up a portfolio - Now I look to charge for my work, however always take in the positives of a client.
E.g if they have something to offer which will benefit me, then I will work for that.
Posted 37 months ago.
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This little video from youtube about sums it up.
Posted originally in the SWPB group.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY
Posted 37 months ago.
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On the reverse side of the coin, independant mags like Nylon or Fixie magazine do some ridiculously good work and are often on the official business expenses of higher up magazine editors as a way to see up and coming talent...and neither of those two magazines pay their photographers.
Posted 37 months ago.
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you don't necessarily need a body of "officially published" work to have a portfolio, just a book of fantastic images that demonstrates your ability to shoot beautifully and consistently under a variety of different conditions and constraints.
i shoot without getting paid, but generally only when it's my idea. example: one evening i walked past an amazing vintage-looking boxing gym. since there were a bunch of people inside doing hardcore workouts, i felt uncomfortable snapping pics from the street without permission. i went inside and told the manager that if they needed any new images for their website, i would happily take them for free simply for permission to shoot in the space and to use them in my portfolio. he countered my offer for free photos with an offer for free boxing lessons in exchange. it basically meant i had free reign over a space that i wanted to shoot in anyway, an endless supply of boxing models, plus some expensive lessons with a trainer for free. it worked out quite well!
but otherwise, if someone asked me to do a shoot where the concept or art direction is their idea or for something they need commercially, i simply don't have the time or money to do it for free (agreed with the comment above that it always takes twice as much time as you think). just come up with some projects for yourself of things that you would want to shoot anyway and go for it.
Originally posted 37 months ago.
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sgoralnick edited this topic 37 months ago.
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if he's getting paid, i'd want paying too.
Posted 37 months ago.
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No, don't work for free just to build your portfolio. As a photo buyer, I don't really care where a photographer has been published (or educated, for that matter). I'm much more focused on filling editorial content each and every month (feeding the beast.) As a beginner, you can demonstrate your expertise with a traditional printed portfolio (or even a good-looking Flickr stream). If you have a photo I need, that trumps everything else.
Posted 37 months ago.
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John Chamilton: You don't care where people have been published as a way to establish that they will, indeed, get the shot?
Posted 37 months ago.
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I've done work for free when I have something to gain I'm interested. A lot of people would shoot for free for example if asked to shoot their favorite band in a concert.
Posted 37 months ago.
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They are trying to take advantage of you. The offer of a publication credit and credit line in exchange for a free shoot is just to get you to do work, which costs you time and energy, in exchange for the lure of 'fame' by them giving you exposure in their magazine.
That kind of exposure will very very very rarely ever get you any additional work. Plus, once a magazine gets you to work for free, you will most likely never be able to stand up and say, "Now please pay me for the next job." There won't be a next job. They'll move on to find the next photographer who wants to work for the lure of credit and exposure.
The best way to think of an offer of "exposure" in exchange for your time, effort, and talent, is to picture yourself standing naked on a wind-swept Alaskan glacier in winter. That, my dear friend, is exposure.
You'll always serve yourself better in the long run asking for some level of fair compensation up front. That way you'll wind up working for clients that value your contributions and efforts, and not spending precious time working for someone that just wants to take advantage of your inexperience.
Hope that helps, and best of luck with your endeavors.
--
Gary Crabbe
Enlightened Images
www.enlightphoto.com
www.enlightphoto.com/views/ (Weblog)
Posted 37 months ago.
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Correct. We're not talking about assignment photography here, right? That would be a different story. But the advice to abbass is the same: shooting for free means you're getting taken advantage of.
Posted 37 months ago.
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Sorry, I thought you meant for assignment photography. I still think that Nylon etc aren't bad magazines to shoot for; in exchange for the lack of reimbursement or maybe a film covering cost you get full reign over the shoot. I've a friend who works there and she says that it's incredibly lose, which is why they have that (cutting) edginess.
Posted 37 months ago.
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It's perfectly alright if you work for free. You can start by trimming the bushes in my yard. Then wash the windows. No? Hmmm...
If you won't work free for me, why would you work free for someone else? I'll bet somebody is making some money there. You should, too.
Posted 37 months ago.
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I've been in the biz about 27 years, on both sides of the editorial desk. I've seen a lot of desperate, cash-strapped publishers take advantage of desperate, young photographers. Do what you gotta do, but IMHO, it's better to hang on to your dignity than donate your talent for a clip that has iffy value in getting you assignments that can actually pay your rent.
As a photo buyer, if you show me a clip and I know you worked for free (it's a tight community--we know), then what's my incentive for paying you top dollar, especially when my publisher has just cut my photo budget again?
If you need clips to demonstrate your assignment photo chops, shoot for a non-profit. They'll be grateful, you'll have your full reign and your tear sheets, you'll have created good will and made future contacts, and you'll have done some good in the world, instead of enriching someone else's coffers.
Okay, lecture mode off...
Posted 37 months ago.
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There are lots of magazines that are worth shooting for free for but looking at the stream of the OP and based on the "if your asking" idea, this isn't one of them. That's not a dig BTW god knows I am not at the level of shooting for the type of magazine that would be worth working for free for.
Posted 37 months ago.
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agree with josh
Posted 37 months ago.
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If you want to shoot for free you can pick up an assistant job pretty easily!
Posted 37 months ago.
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Thanks guys for the honest feedback really worth it :)
Posted 37 months ago.
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No... with some exceptions.
Posted 37 months ago.
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It's okay to work for free.
It's not okay to do favors.
Favors bring on entitlement. Which means you put yourself at risk to be in debt in some form or another. Or possibly worse, a liability you would have never foresee.
Working for free, there's no real duty or obligation you can be held accountable. Because you worked free.
Now... rule 2.
It's okay to work for free if you benefit from a personal gain or something or get exposure.
Posted 37 months ago.
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A former colleague of mine sold his business for £4million (UK pounds - similar $US Dollar) last year - he's a publisher.
He freely admits that he hardly paid for ANY photography over the previous 10 years, or design, or in many cases, writers.
Many of the photographs came from PR companies, marketing companies and tourist agencies, if he needed commissioning photography, he approached colleges and universities, getting the students to do the work as part of their coursework
His opinion was that MANY creatives were prepared to give their work away in return for exposure, and who was he not to take advantage of that ... ?
I couldn't sleep at night with that sort of thing in my mind, but he thought it just good business practise - "It's the only business in the world where I can make millions by people working for free"
He's just started a new business producing tourist guides for hotel groups - the first five have been published and he didn't pay for ANY of the photographs or ANY of the copy
WHO'S THE IDIOT?
Posted 37 months ago.
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@ Dirkvdw : Sad reality
Posted 37 months ago.
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Dirkvdw, your mate might thinks he's smart, but the word bloodsucker comes more easily to mind. Those that work for nothing are the same ones who will eventually whinge like hell when they can't pay their bills at the end of the month.
What sad times we live in.
Posted 37 months ago.
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Maybe another question to ask is whether or not a simple photo credit in a magazine has ever brought anyone in some additional business.
My guess is that, unless it's a fairly high-profile publication that can be used to leverage into some other paid gigs, it isn't going to help much..
The only free work I will do is charities or schools that can't afford to hire a photographer. That's much more satisifying than getting a photo credit in a magazine, and it's pretty good exposure too.
Ask the publisher if they will trade out a half or full page ad in return for your photo and see what they say. I already know the answer.
Originally posted 37 months ago.
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Bob Minton edited this topic 37 months ago.
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I will not work for free.
I will design for free for some charities that I design for.
I will shoot for free for some charities and occasionally as a way to get some interesting images... not often, bot occasionally.
But I do not 'work' for free.
Here is how I do it.
Charity design.
We have a meeting, and goals and parameters are discussed. Budgets for printing and distribution and such.
Assignments are handed out to those who have been appointed to do specific tasks - write the copy, assemble the people for images.
When they are done with that, I will begin to design - having ALL my material there.
Approvals? Nope. If someone is going to micro-manage the design, and make changes to it, that is work. If they want that kind of control, they can HIRE me to do that.
Recently my daughter's skating group needed a photograph for an upcoming, out of state, competition. In the past, one of the moms there would do a P&S and that would be the end of it. Their images were not very creative and in the competition magazine they didn't stand out at all.
They asked my daughter if I 'dabbled' in photography? Would I take the picture? Sure.
I showed up with my dabbling gear and scouted a location at a very crummy area, and then had 10 minutes to assemble 26 skaters into a group shot. I did, and then chose the two images, photoshopped them a little to give them a more 'arty' feel.
Oh, they loved them, but really wanted to see ALL of the images that I had taken. Why, I asked? Well, one of the moms wanted to be involved in making the choice. I asked if she was an art director or image editor and of course, she wasn't. She just wanted to be involved. Oh, I said... no.
I am a professional, and I know what works. It is what I do. They will probably not use me next year... who cares? But this year, the year my daughter skates, they will have a pretty cool image in the magazine and it will definitely stand out among the rest.
If it is WORK, I get paid. However, money is not the only way to get compensated as Chris and Josh have mentioned. I would love to shoot for Nylon.
Posted 37 months ago.
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"Bloodsucker" or "smart business" -- as all those photogs voluntarily gave away their work for free, I lean more towards "smart".
And if you look at the fineprint of many photo-competitions, you'll see many similar approaches to get photographers work for free. Chances to get paid are literally one in a million. And most payments aren't that big either.
Posted 37 months ago.
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I understand the 'bloodsucker' phrase, but these people WILLINGLY give away their work for free ..... he just takes advantage of that.
Creatives are TERRIBLE at this and are willing to take advantage of each other. Web designers taking all of the budget so leaving 'no money' for photography and stealing images left right and centre, photographers passing off another photographer's work as their own, charities with multi-million turnovers expecting others to work for free
.. it really is dog-eat-dog out there in the real world, creative people taking advantage of each other ..... you just got to have some morals, make sure you charge for your creativity and EDUCATE as many fellow creatives as possible.
Oh, and don't work for free .. :)
Posted 37 months ago.
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I just shot a double page spread for a magazine that is free, that's right no one has to pay for it, and they still paid me. The pay wasn't huge but it was a fun shoot and something I had alot of say over and turned out great for my portfolio.
So no, don't do it for free. Advertising brings in quite a few dollars for magazines etc so why should you be working for nothing?
Posted 37 months ago.
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A lot of hoo haa about nothing. Look, if you have nothing published and you think it could be good, go for it. There is a lot to be said for someone who can say "as seen in" on their site. I can't, I've not been published but then not at a level to be, but if the call came to say "Mike we want you to do a shoot for our magazine" I'd do it, if only so I could say "as seen in".
In a world full of blokes/women with cameras calling themselves pro's/semi pros etc then it is an extra feather in your arrow to raise your profile above the others.
Still I'm a firm believer in the old favour system, doing someone a favour often returns one to yourself.
Posted 37 months ago.
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Mike, the issue is sort of what I think I heard Josh say, shooting for a magazine is not the same as shooting for a MAGAZINE!! Someone said that free magazines pay and they do. What magazine of any quality would ask you to shoot for free. Yes, there are some cutting edge fashion mags that do, but I doubt we are talking that here. The magazines that might be worth shooting for for free, don't ask you to shoot for free.
Saying you were published in Doo Wa magazine might impress mom and dad, but anyone who knows would take it for what it is, nothing! Searching for fame in a by line is pretty empty business.
Originally posted 37 months ago.
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mona chrome edited this topic 37 months ago.
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"...And our presenter tonight was 3,424th runner up in last year's American Idol and has had his photographs featured in Obstetrics Weekly..." [grin]
Yep--a lot of truth in @mona chrome's comment "The magazines that might be worth shooting for for free, don't ask you to shoot for free."
Posted 37 months ago.
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sure, working for free is great. you can come mow my lawn and paint my house and i'll put a sign in my yard that gives you credit...
please watch this five times in a row: www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE&fmt=18
Posted 37 months ago.
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Can see your point Mona about a magazine vs a MAGAZINE but I think what people are overlooking is that unless you are the next Rankin or land a job as a staff photographer the works hardly going to be the best paying. I guess also again there is a lot of differences between cultures coming up. Read the thread and nearly evey answer is to not work for free or people stating hard and fast they dont work for free which with varying levels of quality I think some humilty is required.
I wonder just how many on here support themselves fully by their photographic work
Posted 37 months ago.
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that is a classic video and although he is a bit harsh, he makes a great point. somehow I think people forget that photography, writing, etc are still jobs. I think this happens because they have an artistic quality to them and there are lots of hobbyists. (You don't see a lot of amateur janitors, lawn mowers, maids, etc so you don't think you can get it for free)
I think if you work for free, it should be on your terms and you should have a clear vision of what it can do for you AND what it can do to harm you or your profession.
examples:
I was contacted by a woman wanting to use one of my sports photos in a textbook. She said that the publisher had no money for images. Turns out she was a freelancer who searches for free images for publishers. So the publisher hired this woman. They had money to spend...but they spent it on a woman who would find ways around paying a photographer. She gave me the usual.."it is great for your portfolio and we will give you a copy of the book..."
I declined that one.
On the other hand, I sent images to the Athletic department at the local university for free. I wanted to introduce myself and to let them know that there was a photographer in the area who could get them some decent images. Within three months I was hired as the University's sports photographer....I accepted. The only reason this came to be was because I offered some of my images for free. Sure I could have sent over a portfolio or asked for an interview with the AD but they didn't even know that they needed a photog at the time and therefore were unlikely to take the time...but for free anyone will look at the images.
anyway, IMHO you need to be in total control of the free stuff and see potential for it doing something for you...which most of the time it won't.
good luck,
Peter
Posted 37 months ago.
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no no no no no no... he has advertising no? then he can pay you. god it makes me so sick... there is times you work for free sure... if some one gives you a pass some place and in return when they are making money does not want to pay you then no...
Posted 37 months ago.
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Non-profits real IRS 501(c)(3) charities, I occasionally do for free.
The only other freebies that I do are low resolution breaking news stills for the chapter 11 bankrupt NBC affiliate where I live. Occasionally the shots get used as background frames for local news.
The only reason that I do that is that if I end up in trouble again for more "illegal unauthorized street photography or suspected terrorism", I want to have a succesful publication history to show the jury.
Right now that is a problem for full time news crews let alone freelancers who keep ending up in jail. And I only take pictures of little kids when I am not busy stealing copper plumbing, wire, or anhydrous ammonia to cook meth with.
Posted 36 months ago.
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If you're good enough that they want you to shoot, then you're good enough to be paid. Guess what, you still get to build your portfolio with shots you were paid for. Its not like you're going to hear "oh well we're going to pay you $300 to run this photo, but you can't use it in your portfolio even after the photo has run".
I can't buy groceries if I don't have money right? No, I have to work to "raise" my budget so I can eat.
You don't have money for your project? Raise or earn money until you can do it. God this makes me so irate!
Posted 36 months ago.
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ANOTHER excellent video to highlight this!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY
Posted 36 months ago.
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Everyone wants photos or art or websites done for free! They try to rationalize it to you and themselves by saying "you will get exposure."
Since they don't know what it takes to do any type of visual art they don't understand or appreciate the value in it. They want it for free, and that's that! I like what a poster here said: are they working for free?
Is it good to work for free? Absolutely NOT!!!
Posted 36 months ago.
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That video has been passing through my design lists and I am sorry but I do not agree with it. I mean I guess I do in the ridiculous way that they present it but I don't think that is real life. In real life if you have a small budget you just need to be upfront about what it is and discuss it from the very beginning. I do it all the time with printers. I tell them from the beginning that the budget I have is—an example from a current project—$10,000 and I need 46,000 pieces. We then work together from the beginning adjusting size and what we will do for the piece so that we can meet the budget. If we come in under budget then we add stuff or use better paper or something. If we come in over budget I will ask them to drop the price or work to find another way of producing it. If instead I was working with a photographer I would tell them the budget from the beginning and let them decide if they wanted to do the job for that price. If yes then we would do the same back and forth of what can we afford for the budget. Maybe we shoot on location or green screen. Maybe we shoot with no models and develop a different concept, etc.
That's real life where budgets are hard and fast but prices are not.
Posted 36 months ago.
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I for one really appreciated the video Andrea posted. I have experienced the same things far too many times. I even sent it to a clown who wanted to get a website out of me for free.
**********
The video of the writer really hit the nail on the head! Finally, someone who understands!
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Chris Lupetti edited this topic 36 months ago.
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Josh makes a good point. The best a client can do is tell you that they have a tight budget, if they even realize it, and then work with you if you are willing to work with them. I once had an art director ask me to do a pro bono job. They would pay for expenses. When I submitted my estimate for expenses, he started to tell me what the "other" photographers were coming in at--I went ballistic. He was a new AD and I let him know that it isn't cool to shop a Pro Bono project. He got the message and always calls me with "I want you to do a project for me, my budget is $$$$$$$$,...." and the details follow. We have been working together successfully for 13 years. He rarely has a great budget, but I know he wants me and I know he will work with me (being reasonable) to get the job done within the expense part of the budget.
Posted 36 months ago.
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I routinely deal with people who want design work for nothing or far to low. I don't try and compete with low cost do it all "web designers" or "graphic artists" and as such my prices are more expensive. Whenever I run into these situations my response is to offer them other solutions that might fit their budget. Sometimes it's other designers, sometimes it's free templates, whatever. I share as much info as I can and politely wish them the best of luck. People have different budgets and different needs, no reason to be angry with them. Be nice and provide quality then when they can afford you they will come to you.
Posted 36 months ago.
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One thing that I am not doing at all is portraits or weddings. Those do not help my reputation for photojournalism and I have no interest in trying to either photoshop or softlight away all of those high school dermatology nightmares. That really is work.
Since I am not competing for yellow page jobs I don't expect many problems with local photographers. If that were to change, I probably have much more equipment and deeper pockets that many people in the phone book and the ability to run at a loss.
Posted 36 months ago.
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www.scottkelby.com/blog/2009/archives/4945
Posted 36 months ago.
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i shoot non-profits for free doing one today for MPT.org a fund raiser event. i am a event shooter. i also mite do TFP @ times to. those are the fourm of free i do it's all exposure.
i believe in giving back to the community and helping others.
i am a member of meetup.com and go to the local photography meetup here in Baltimore. and i give my time and just for the love of photography and helping other learn..
it been the way i was taught photography to help each other.
i feel good to doing stuff like that. not everybody like me have had the luxury of going to a college and being taught photography formally
so this is my way of teaching like i was taught.
Posted 36 months ago.
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blog.sduffyphotography.com/2009/06/04/i-am-a-photo-slut/
Posted 36 months ago.
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"Maybe another question to ask is whether or not a simple photo credit in a magazine has ever brought anyone in some additional business."
THAT'S The magical question!
Years back, I had an image no bigger than a postage stamp that ran in a magazine called FHM. Once I put that down on my portfolio, I had people knocking down my door.
Today, I charge 650.00 to develop a portfolio and guess what? I'm booked out.
If FHM, Maxim, Playboy or any top shelf magazine asks to use my photo for photo credit, I'm going to have the image with an additional six or seven models for them to review.
It's about marketing. Once I got my first image published with FHM, OVERNIGHT, I INSTANTLY became a "Nationally published glamour photographer" WITH tearsheet.
10 years later? I shoot playboy models, tv stars and I pay very little or next to nothing to do so.
Posted 36 months ago.
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My little studio costs me $12:00US/Hour regardless of whether I use it or not, 24/7/365.25 After taking a photo, it costs $0.60USD per minute to do anything with my computer for someone else AND it costs a minimum of $12.00USD per CD/DVD per burn. This does not take into account the cost of travel, scouting a location, taking shots and bringing them back to be worked on or the time it takes to transfer the image files to the computer.
What does it cost you to take a photo for someone else? When you work for free, this cost is what you are donating to either your marketing and public profile building activities, OR the level to which you are subsidising someone else's org/biz. in the end, only you can decide if the value of the exchange is mutually beneficial or in your favour.
If you're earning/trying to earn, money from photography then someone always pays for what you do, period. The question then becomes, "Who's gonna pay, you or them?"
Good Luck.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Tsc Tempest edited this topic 36 months ago.
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The answer is NO. Working for free doesn't help anyone (including you). If you think your work doesn't worth anything, why do it? I think it's not the case, but I'm trying to make a point.
Posted 36 months ago.
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