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Taking photos of trick-or-treaters illegal?
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I feel your pain. Last year, a similar thing happened to me. I tried to submit this photo to the pool two or three times, but was rejected each time. Frustrated that I can't even whine about it properly ;^)
A bunch of police cars with their lights flashing squealed up to my house. A group of pissed off cops interrogated me started to search my house. My wife and I explained that the parents were standing right next to me. This year, I took ONE Halloween photo. This is it.
Posted 31 months ago.
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The trick or treaters are on your property. You are perfectly legal to take pictures. The unwarranted search however is illegal.
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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smeitner300 edited this topic 31 months ago.
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@happy tinfoil cat: what's the whole story? Who complained? Inquiring minds want to know!
Posted 31 months ago.
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That sounds supremely bizarre! It's hard to image they'd go to such great lengths with so little evidence of illegal activity. I'm of an inquiring mind with . How about the rest of the story?
Thank you. That was my original assumption anyway and it was confirmed after a little Googling and cross-referencing.
Posted 31 months ago.
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It's still legal if its not on his property.
I too would like to hear the whole story. Who complained? What did the cop say?
Did you even talk to the cop who came to the door? You don't even have to say a word. And it might be best to not say anything or at least just give out the info you want to.
You never know what the complaint was. Did they say you where exposing yourself to the kids? Did they say you where touching the kids? Did they say you where dragging the kids into your house?
Maybe I'm sounding a little paranoid, but obviously you didn't break the law, but the person complaining thought you did, so you don't really know what they complained about. (and you don't know what the cop is thinking either. Most cops will try very hard to protect kids - which is a great thing, except when some local nut case down the street tells them bad info about you.)
Obviously the person who complained does not understand the law. And who knows if they are some kind of mentally ill person? Or someone who thinks that photos of kids in halloween costumes is child porn? There's a lot of crazy people out there, and when they call the cops, the cops have to check it out since that's their job.
Chances are if you don't give out your life story, or say too much, the cop will realize that there's nothing going on there. (I'm not implying that you have anything to hide, but if a cop is on a witchhunt, or simply thinks the complaint sounds legit, and you tell them too much, it could lead to farther investigation which is never good....)
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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mylifeinthebigcity edited this topic 31 months ago.
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this has been happening in the uk for awhile now, and why i don't take many pics of kids nowadays, if i do take any pics of kids i ask the adult with them to sign a form saying they agree for me to take the pic.
Posted 31 months ago.
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That's discouraging Markus. You shouldn't have to do that. Without photographers, both amateur and pro, recording daily life people would be getting away with far more crime and life would be so much more dull. I've also posted links to documents explaining legal rights in other countries, including the UK, on the above logo's photo page. Information is power. If you know your rights under the law in your country and jurisdiction you can't be intimidated into submitting to unreasonable demands.
Posted 31 months ago.
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Looking forward to the follow-up, i.e. taking of a photo of the cop who comes to conduct the non custodial interrogation, opps, I mean visit.
Posted 31 months ago.
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The entire story:
It was drizzling outside and I had studio lights in the garage that I hadn't used in a long while. I opened the double car garage door and set the candy inside; I wanted good shots. The cheapo trigger I had ended up failing more than it worked. (good to find that out prior to my next shoot) I only got a couple good shots. Most of the parents stood next to me while I shot. Pretty much the same story as Cal Sr.
One of our neighbors with a baby on his shoulder gave me this weird look. I asked him to pose the baby, but instead he gasped and headed straight home. He returned a few minutes later and asked me if I was a professional photographer. He asked a few more questions and left. (I'm pretty sure this is the guy who complained)
After the trick-or-treaters stopped coming, I went over to another neighbors house and escorted one of their kids around since she was very unhappy to be stuck at home dishing out candy all night.
Soon after I got home, four or five police cars descended on my house. It was way overkill.
They wanted to look in the garage, so I let them. They asked me what was under the tarps, so I showed them. The female cop stopped them there (didn't want to taint any evidence). So it was a short search. The big leader cop looked like Duke Nukem and was real angry. I felt that any second, he was going to slam me to the ground. He kept repeating, "So you know why we're here?" He must have asked me that a dozen times.
"Why are you taking pictures?"
"For fun."
"Did you get the parents' permission?"
"No, but they were standing right next to me."
"But you didn't get their permission?"
"No, but..."
"Are you giving the photos to the parents?"
"No. If they want a...."
"So you know why we're here?"
"They were standing right next to me!"
"Then what are you doing with the photos?"
"Put them on the internet."
"Why?"
"That's what I do with all my pictures."
"You are the only person in San Jose taking photos of kids. So you know why we're here?"
"My kids were photographed by at least three houses on our block!"
"You are the only person taking photos with professional gear. So you know why we're here?"
"'cuz anyone with a camera is either a pedophile or a terrorist?"
That pissed him off a bit. He was fishing for me to say something, but I don't know what he expected me to say.
"Halloween is a bad time. There are cults abducting children" trying to justify what they were doing.
"huh?"
He kept asking me the same crap.
I promised not to do it ever again. They wouldn't give me a business card but Duke wrote his badge number down for me. I asked if I could take their picture. It would be a cool shot with all those colored lights in the bokeh, plus there would be a record of the cops involved. They refused, with a snarl. It would have made a nasty experience much better.
It's great that they are vigilantly out to protect the children. But come on! I wish I had professional gear.
I joked with my wife that I would be passing out condoms this year instead of candy. ;^) She told me in no uncertain terms she would divorce me.
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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Happy Tinfoil Cat edited this topic 31 months ago.
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God knows what the nosy neighbour must have said to get the police so interested. If he/she said "There's a paedophile taking photos across the street", then I could maybe understand 5 police cars arriving on the scene (although that would be overkill too, when one should be enough), but what you experienced is a great example of what happens to innocent people in this era of paranoia and suspicion.
I wonder if the correct answer to "You know why we're here?" is "No, sir. Please tell me."
Posted 31 months ago.
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the reason i don't many pics of kids isn't to do if its law or not, but about the things that comes after the police have been to talk to you, i know of 3 people who got visits from the police after reports of "pedophile type behaviour" each person was found to be up to nothing, BUT they all lost their jobs, their homes and family, i was speaking to one of them only this week, he has again lost his job because some "concerned person" thought it was only right that his boss should know that he was arrested by the police for being a pedophile, and this was 4 years after the police first talked to him
Posted 31 months ago.
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So sad, considering one of my favourite sets is the wonderful 'Halloween in Harlem' from Amy Stein:
amysteinphoto.com/halloween.html
I wonder if she had much hassle from the police.
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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martinhanna edited this topic 31 months ago.
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Happy tin foil Cat,
Sounds like they where on a witchhunt in your case. Obviously the person who called them must have told them something other than "he is taking pictures with the parents".
Obviously no laws where broken since they where trying real hard to find something and to intimidate you into admiting something illegal, but they left with nothing. (no kids where harmed or kidnapped. No laws where broken.)
The cops where basically doing their jobs and left. (They could have been more professional about it, but sometimes that is standard procedure to intimitade people to admiting to their crimes....) They also didn't tell you to stop, or you can't take pictures on your property..etc.
I'm sure when they left they called it in and said something like, "no crime or child kidnapping going on here, its just some guy taking pictures...)
You handled yourself well. Don't let that scare you out of doing more pictures.
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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mylifeinthebigcity edited this topic 31 months ago.
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Duke Nukem, haha that's classic. I'm so waiting for my opportunity to have cops come over to my house for taking photos of children.
My Halloween experience was quite the opposite. I took many photos of all kids in our neighborhood and people emailing me impatiently when I would put the photos online for them to see.
Posted 31 months ago.
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i was reading this and realized that tinfoilhat said 'they searched my house" then elaborated and said 'I allowed them'
the repeated questions are to get you to incriminate yourself or acknowledge suspicion, making excuses or coming up with alternate reasoning only creates more suspicion, so the questions kept coming.
so heres an uplifting child photography halloween story
www.nytimes.com/2009/10/31/nyregion/31metjournal.html
Posted 31 months ago.
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I don't think I made any excuses or any alternate reasoning. I honestly don't know what response he would have expected / accepted.
They told me I shouldn't, but they didn't say it was illegal. They were careful not to cross the line. It's just the intimidation and humiliation that they will do it again if I do it again. Perhaps they should bring in a SWAT team next, huh?
I'd like to know more about Cal Sr's experience.
Posted 31 months ago.
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I think the key question you failed to ask is, "What law am I breaking?" If they can't provide that than ask them to kindly leave or you would be taking action against them." Pull out a pen and paper and start asking each one for their badge number and name."
Once you can demonstrate that you know what you are doing is NOT illegal, they will usually back off very quick. I'd also try to get local newspapers to look into it.
You were within your rights to start photographing them, whether they like it or not.
Posted 31 months ago.
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I am continually amazed by the misinformation that some people spout... I have a friend who is doing a photography course over here in the UK. She was astonished when I casually snapped some candids in the High Street...
I said what's up... She said "You're not going to sell those are you?". I said probably not, but what's the deal if I do...
"My tutor said you need their permission and a model release".
*shakes head*
Not in the UK you don't, stock photo sites only ask for that in case they sell the picture in the US.
I then continued her education by doing some urban exploring and explaining that trespass isn't a criminal offence, it's a civil one, and only the land owner, or authorised representative can actually ask me to leave. Even then they can't *make* me leave. They need a Policeman for that.
Hence abandoned buildings owned by some faceless developer, who's waiting to flatten it, are perfect for exploring, especially at weekends when the land owners contact number is a empty office :-)
Assuming of course there is a way in... Because breaking and entering is a criminal offence... So make sure you don't accidentally have a hammer, crowbar or wire cutters in your bag!
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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SteveSnaps edited this topic 31 months ago.
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I suspect put a "CAMERA IN USE" sign in the front yard or garden would be a more than adequate defense even though no warning is needed.
If the visitors are too dumb to read it is their problem.
Posted 31 months ago.
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OMG! When my daughter told me about the police visit I prepared for some questioning but not in my wildest imagination would I have expected such a blatant over-the-top response. It's hard to say what anyone would do when faced with such fierce intimidation tactics.
I'd like to think that I'd remain cool and politely ask why they were there and why they felt they needed all those patrol cars. I'm pretty sure I would politely decline their request to search my property or even to look at my photos. After having read several legal references (click "Phtography is not a crime" logo above), I was prepared to immediately take photos of the police officer's entering my property when they returned. I had my cell phone's voice recorder ready and my camera nearby but they never came back.
They can't demand you show your photos or delete them without a search warrant. They need probable cause that a crime has been committed to get a search warrant and a phone call tip from the nosy neighbor is not enough, especially if the complaint describes nothing illegal. Police officers should know, or should be reasonably expected to know, that photographing people (children or adults) from your private residence or even in the street is not illegal. Exception: Zooming in on someone's bedroom window IS an illegal invasion of privacy. No signage or other warnings are required or necessary, though. We're not talking about a watch dog or guns here. These are cameras and "Photography Is Not A Crime"!
I'm not so sure I'd be anxious for such a visit David. Being under close scrutiny with everyone thinking the worst of you cannot be a comfortable situation regardless of my legal standing. I have prepared myself now, though. I carry printed copies of two of the references I found so I can "help" any officials who mistakenly attempt to intimidate me. I will politely ask them a few questions while leafing through the documents (Clearly marked in bold letters "Photographer's Legal Rights") then offer them to have a look if they like.
You have some magnificent photos in your stream David, very professional and supremely high quality. Because of the subject matter, however, those who live in darkness or in constant fear of it will see what they expect to see. It's so easy for some folks to take photos or photographic activities out of context and put their own evil spin on them. Sad but true.
Posted 31 months ago.
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Just as an additional anecdote, I've been told by a policeman in the UK that "You shouldn't take photos of children". He said it as if he meant "It's illegal to", which - as we know - is completely incorrect.
I fear that photographers are fighting a losing battle against ignorance among the general public and the authorities. :(
I need a t-shirt that says "I'm not a paedophile, I'm a photographer".
Posted 31 months ago.
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- Lanny [deleted] says:
One thing to remember is that you can be arrested and detained for 3 days without being charged. If they don't like you and can't get you legally, they can and will make life hard for you.
Posted 31 months ago.
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I think there was only one person upset, and he was under the impression it was illegal to take pictures of people without express permission.
Perhaps the cops told them there was no law against it unless I was a pro and not getting model releases. Just maybe, that's why he came back to ask if I was a pro. That's a wild guess. Even then, it's a civil matter.
iowapix, I may just invest in one of those "this area is under electronic surveillance signs" as I plan to put up some security cameras anyway. Maybe something like "Attention: Photography in progress. You do not have permission to enter the premises unless you agree to allow your likeness and/or voice to be used in video and photographs for any purpose whatsoever and without further compensation."
Posted 31 months ago.
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no offense, but you did offer answers not directly related to his questions, your story is more interesting that the guy who started the post.
"I do not know, please tell me what crime was commited." would be a good answer & a swat team would have been awesome...
but im not sure where in america you can be detained for 3 days without charges.
Posted 31 months ago.
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For the states, detention laws for arrest and arraignment very considerably from state to state but are usually not more than 1 to 3 days. There are also strict limits for psychiatric observation.
One item that I did find is that it is important to very explicitly ask the cops if you are free to leave and force them to say "NO".
Cops are trained liars and there is always the possibility that in front of a jury the cop will say that the suspect was free to leave at any time.
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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iowapix edited this topic 31 months ago.
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I think it's a bad idea to put up a warning sign about photography or security cameras. It implies that this warning was necessary and it further pushes the perception that photography was something so harmful or bad that it requires a warning.
It doesn't matter if you are professional or not. Your rights to take photos do not change in anyway. The model release is a written consent of the model (or the model's parent if it's a child) that the photo can be used in a commercial way.
People need to realize that taking a photo and publishing a photo are two completely different things and very different laws apply.
Taking a photo is almost always legal.
Publishing a photo for editorial use, news, your blog, flickr is also fine as long as you show what's visible to the public anyway.
Commercial use (like advertising) requires the consent of the person in the photo. That's what a model release is for.
Posted 31 months ago.
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I agree that putting up the signs may spread misinformation.
If you want to put them up to scare away potential house burglars or vandals, that's a different story.
I would not worry about being arrested and not charged for 3 days assuming you don't scream and yell at the cops or threaten them....etc. Being firm, but calm and polite is the way to go.
Posted 31 months ago.
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Putting a sign up might get you burgled!
Posted 31 months ago.
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Please click on the first image at the top of this post... the one that looks like a bumper-sticker and reads "Photography is not a crime".
So many of these comments are answered in the references I've listed on the photo page for that image. That's why I put it there - to help answer questions and dispel rumors. There are links to references and legal guidelines for the US, Canada, UK, Australia, and Portugal. If you have a link for a country or resource I haven't listed please let me know.
I have to agree that "Happy Tinfoil Cat's" story is more interesting than mine. It's clearly more controversial. Instead of getting angry and going off half-cocked though, read the guidelines. Information is power. Become empowered, but always be polite.
Posted 31 months ago.
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What do they say if you have a security camera set up?
Posted 31 months ago.
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Well, that wouldn't be professional gear like my Canon Rebel is ;^)
Posted 31 months ago.
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Cal Sr - I read the entire thing and the legal situation is exactly what I understood it to be. I did not have to let them inspect my house, but not doing so would have caused me much, much more hassle. Judges rarely deny a search warrant and I've heard what cops do if they are pissed off. They slash every cushion, knock holes in walls, open every can of food, squeeze out your toothpaste, basically completely trash your house, and I'm sure their desperation gets more intense when they are finding nothing of value.
[removed rant]
Suffice to say, cops routinely lie, steal, give false testimony, manufacture evidence, murder in cold blood, cover for each other and have the entire system completely in their favor.
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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Happy Tinfoil Cat edited this topic 31 months ago.
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Suffice to say, cops routinely lie, steal, give false testimony, manufacture evidence, murder in cold blood, cover for each other and have the entire system completely in their favor.
I'm sorry your personal experiences with the boys in blue have given you such a defaitist and negative impression of them. I hope and trust your view is not representative of the majority.
Posted 31 months ago.
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last part HTC post also applies to all uk police south of M4 when north of M4 i have no problems taking photos but once i pass it problems, problems and more problems, even outside my front door
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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johan m b edited this topic 31 months ago.
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Suffice to say, cops routinely lie, steal, give false testimony, manufacture evidence, murder in cold blood, cover for each other and have the entire system completely in their favor.
I'm sorry your personal experiences with the boys in blue have given you such a defaitist and negative impression of them. I hope and trust your view is not representative of the majority.
Unfortunately, the cities of Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Detroit, Oakland, St. Louis, New Orleans, and a plenty of others have long, documented histories of those types of abuses.
Don't believe me?
Google any of those city names, add the words "police department" to it, and one of the following:
scandal, murder, officer+rape, drug dealing, racist, cover-up.
It's endless.
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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NoHoDamon edited this topic 31 months ago.
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We could almost start another Flickr group
Cops That F*** Up...............A Lot
Posted 31 months ago.
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I bet it already exists.
Posted 31 months ago.
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I'm sorry your personal experiences with the boys in blue have given you such a defaitist and negative impression of them.
I'm sorry yours hasn't imparted you with a healthy suspicion of them.
That's not to say you should be out chanting "f--k the police" but it is to say you should be naturally distrustful of all institutional authority figures, be they police officers, judges, elected officials, or dog catchers. That's how a democracy prevents itself from being taken over by a bureaucratic junta.
As for corrupt police. Not every single police officer is corrupt, but any single police officer could be.
Posted 31 months ago.
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I always take pictures of friends and family at parties. Most parents I am friends with don't mind me taking pictures of their kids as long as I don't post publicly on the internet.
A lot of parents would freak having you take pictures of their kids on Halloween.... put an Old Man in a Santa Suite and now they go crazy lining up and paying you to do so... Does anyone ever sign a Santa Release at the Mall? Does anyone tell them to delete the picture after they print it????
I guess we are approaching a time you have to sign a waver.. even though you are in line to get your kids picture with Santa.
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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mrbrent62 edited this topic 31 months ago.
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Just one reason I do not trust cops the fucking pigs. My first experience.
When I was about five years old, there was this guy from Chicago who wanted my father's business. I saw this guy and his buddy come after my father with an ice pick, my father drew his gun. Instead, one of the guys punctured all four tires of the car I was sitting in. My father was charged with waving a gun in a mean and malicious manner, no charges for the other guy since the only evidence was witnesses (who were afraid to testify) and four flats. The guy had three restraining orders to stay away from us at the time. My mother and little brother went to a place far away in another city to hide out. Nobody knew anything about where we went. My mom gave the police captain the address and phone number (under strict confidence) so he could notify her to come and get my father when he would be released, since the car had four flats and my father is stone deaf and can't use a phone. The police captain never called, but a car drove up and riddled the place with bullets.
This is just one example of why I do not trust cops.
[clarified]
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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Happy Tinfoil Cat edited this topic 31 months ago.
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^^That's Chicago for ya!
Posted 31 months ago.
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Happy Tinfoil Cat I don't trust guys who wave guns about "in a mean and malicious manner". People like that tend to get bullets fired at them.
Posted 31 months ago.
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It's actually California.
Arty - Huh???? "I don't trust guys who wave guns about "in a mean and malicious manner". People like that tend to get bullets fired at them. "
Well, I guess he should have just let them stab us to death, 'cuz we're anti-gun. BTW, one of my first memories was when this guy tried to kidnap me from my school bus. Being grabbed and carried away it traumatic, especially when you know they are going to kill you, slowly, to prove a point. But then, I shouldn't have violently resisted cuz violence is bad.
Posted 31 months ago.
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^^That would be very tramatic for any child to go through. Where in California? I think just about everyone here in Idaho owns at least one weapon.
How long have you been in your neighborhood? My dad used to shoot the trick-or-treaters in our neighborhood, but everyone knew us as we'd lived there for so many years. He thought about doing the same thing this year, but he's only lived in his current neighborhood for four months, so I told him it wouldn't be a good idea. People might find it a bit creepy.
Posted 31 months ago.
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Northern California. I don't want to give exact details; I have a family to think about.
Over ten years. That is why we were so surprised. Many of the kids are like family to us. Four of the homes on our block worked out a schedule where different parents are either dropping off or picking up kids from the various schools. I have been driving these kids to school for many years, babysitting them on weekends, etc. But, I guess the new guy with the baby finds me creepy.
Posted 31 months ago.
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That's a shame. I hope your neighbor moves.
Posted 31 months ago.
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@Happy Tinfoil Cat: You are much better off denying the police entry into your home or garage when they arrive without a search warrant. See www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA -doesn't matter whether you think you're in the clear or not, cause if they're pissed by the allegation, they will search for other evidence to justify their visit (it sounds like they perform an unwarranted search.)
If there is a next time (you never know when an unresolved, time-delay case like this may rise up again) I suggest that you bring a camcorder to meet the police with, especially when they're on your property. Insist on recording the entire encounter with them (it's your right), and that's what the encounter will be about - not your alleged illegal photography. Also, have the cell number of a civil rights attorney on-hand. You never know when photography of cops in your area will turn into a "disorderly conduct" arrest or "contempt of cop" assault.
You are located in California, so you have to notify them that you are recording them (even though it's self-evident that you're there with a camera.) California has a "two party" notification law, necessitating that you notify all parties that they are being recorded. Get your notification to them recorded on tape. And seek a lawyer for advice (IANAL.)
If the police arrest or assault you for videotaping them, you may have a basis for filing harrassment charges against them.
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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Kevin Prichard Photography edited this topic 31 months ago.
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NEVER GIVE PERMISSION,
exactly, permission to look around, becomes a fishing expedition for anything and everything.
one loose vitamin can become a controlled susbsance arrest, they dont have to identify or test anything on the spot, but they sure can arrest you for on the spot.
even obviously legal items can be confiscated
(recently a warrant was executed in nyc and a poster of Lenin was seized)
and when this stuff gets reported in the news innocent things can become scandalous in the hads of a bored reporter.
a poster of bob marley become indications of a possible drug location,
a poster of a rapper holding a gun becomes imagery glorifying violence,
read Mein Kampf in college, in the newspaper it becomes suspected nazi sympathizer,
collection of Tarantino dvds becomes an interest in movies about serial killers
dad's old playboys in the steamer trunk, becomes cops busted a pervert with a collection of what may be deviant pornography.
have old toys, or lots of velvet clown paintings, easy,
that becomes suspect decorated his home with the intention of luring and entraping victims.
NEVER GIVE PERMISSION,
anything and everything will be used against you and twisted around in every way possible.
Posted 31 months ago.
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I own a digital postage scale, there are cold pills in the bathroom, drain cleaner in the closet, coffee filters in the kitchen, and paint thinner in the garage.
A dishonest cop could pop me for being a suspected meth cook and then as a civil action require an environmental inspection and clean up. That can cost from $5,000 to $20,000.
If I ever have to talk to a cop, even about a call that I initiated, the meeting will be outside.
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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iowapix edited this topic 31 months ago.
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- You are absolutely correct. Any time you are being questioned by a police officer, the officer's interests run counter to yours. Easier language: he is not on your side. Never give permission. No warrant, no admittance.
Posted 31 months ago.
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I don't know if it is factually correct, but from more than a few Law & Order episodes, while one cop is having a nice polite voluntary chat in an apartment and keeping the subject busy, the other is checking the book shelves and mail sitting on the table.
Posted 31 months ago.
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im never worried about the guy with 'anarchists cookbook' on his shelf, im worried about the guy who memorized it and threw his copy away.
Posted 31 months ago.
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Well, once again I'm late to the party. Sorry, I've been off practicing law this month... *s*
Okay, HTC, here's the two things to remember: (1) never allow the officers to search your house without a warrant. and (2) never agree to talk to the cops if they show up with attitude because you don't have to.
First, the search issue. There's a very good reason for not allowing a search and requiring them to get a warrant. It requires them to say what they're looking for. So, for example, if they're looking for a kidnapped child, they can't look in the silverware drawer. It restrains them. Second, they can't get it without probable cause. Even a drunken judge with bipolar disorder and an impacted molar woudln't give a warrant on these facts.
However, from what I understand, HTC, you had the door to the garage open. The cops can search and seize anything in plain sight. So if they saw something in the garage in plain sight, they can seize and take it. So if this ever happens again, in any aspect, deny permission to search, deny them access to the house without a search warrant, and talk to them through the door. If they tell you to step outside, tell them thank you, but no thank you. They can't arrest you inside your home without a search warrant, which is why they always tell people to step outside before the put the cuffs on them. Keep in mind that even if they have a valid arrest warrant, they can't come into the house and arrest someone without a valid SEARCH warrant. Now, if they have such a warrant they'll just station an office at the door and go get one, but there is a value in making them toe the line.
Now, as to talking to the cops, just say no. If you have to say anything at all to them, talk to them through the screen door, but do not go outside. You have no obligation to talk to the police at all. If they knock and say they want you to come outside and talk about something, tell them no thank you, close your door, and ignore them. If they go and get a warrant, then they can look in your house, but they STILL can't force you to talk to them. Here is something else that is not well understood. If the cops show up and start asking you questions without reading you your rights, you may think it doesn't count. But it does. Anything you tell a cop will be admitted against you as voluntarily provided evidence. It is only when you are in custody that Miranda rights attach. So you have no obligation to talk to the cops at any time, although if you are asked to identify yourself, you must in most states do that (but that does not mean show ID, it means you must give them your name and date of birth). That's the one exception.
If you choose to talk to the police, you need to remember the cardinal rule of police interrogations. They only write down what makes you look bad. If you said something like "first I rescued the cat from the tree then I helped an old lady across the street before I took that kids photo" the only thing they write down is "admits he took photo."
Cops also continue to ask questions like "so you know why we're here" because, as has been suggested, they want you to say something that incriminates you. So the best way to deal with them is not to say anything. If you have to say anything, say "I am in lawful possession of these premises, and you have no probable cause to arrest or search either me or the premises. Please leave." Always be polite (please and thank you). But be firm.
Here's the other thing to remember on that score. First, cops always have each other's backs, and they remember what the other cops remember, not what happened. Second, if they are actually on the hunt for something, they are not beyond dropping evidence in order to get a search warrant or claim exigent circumstances. So even though they say something like "the only reason not to let us search is if you're hiding something," you can say "no, the reason not to let you search is because the Bill of Rights says I don't have to."
And, for what it may be worth, if I was going to post any sign, it would be "this house is protected by the US Constitution." That's really all you need.
Just my thoughts
Posted 31 months ago.
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aldewitt_2000 - Thank you very much. You've enlightened me further. BTW, the garage door had been closed a half hour before they arrived.
Posted 31 months ago.
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@HTC - Don't trust Duke Nukem: he carries rocket-propelled grenades. Get a lawyer to deal with Duke. IANAL, so take the following with chunks of salt--
"You are the only person in San Jose taking photos of kids. So you know why we're here?" - They're goading you into confessing something which you say did not take place! (And lying to you, which is typical.) One misspoken statement to police, and they can get the upper hand.
"They wanted to look in the garage, so I let them." - Granting property access to cops is similar to the Miranda "right to remain silent" -- it's your right, up until you give it away by talking. Once given, it's gone. Similar goes for police-without-warrants at your door and on your property. Once you've given access, it's theirs. One of the lawyers here will hopefully clarify the limits on their ability to search.
I've also heard that information obtained during such a warrantless search of your premises and possessions can be used to justify another search later on. Pictures of your own kids in a wading pool on your garage bulletin board? The cops might remember them as indecent. Don't let them onto your property again. Your front doorstep should be the limit, but the public sidewalk is probably best.
"I promised not to do it ever again." - Don't make promises you may break in the future. You may be thinking you just promised to never photograph Halloween trick-or-treaters from your garage, but Duke probably heard it as "I promise never to take pictures of anybody else's kids ever again, anywhere in the world, for the rest of my life." If that version works to his advantage, that's what will end up in his police report.
Don't ever talk to cops, there's no being a "good guy" with them. Really. You only have to provide basic identity (name and address in most jurisdictions), don't ever talk with them again about this issue, not until you've spoken with an attorney. The most you should say is "I want to speak with my attorney" - and only if they take you into custody. Stiff upper lip, mate, no matter how intimidating Duke gets, don't budge.
Remember, they're already acting as though you've committed crime, and appear to be investigating you (very likely their visit was "official," as in logged in their database. They may still be for all you know.) On the other end of the cops' suspicions might (still) be criminal charges - arbitrary ones with the words "sex" or "stalk" in the title, to nail you down while they do get a valid search warrant to go through both your house and garage.
Being arrested on charges (that are dropped later) alone can be enough to cause current or future employment issues, even if it's only for the catch-all "disorderly conduct."
Since you're apparently under suspicion, I would always have a camcorder charged and handy, wherever you are, with a blank memory card or tape in it. If the cops visit again, flip the camcorder on, start recording, then step outside and close your front door behind you. In addition to photographing kids in public, in most jurisdictions you have the right to videotape cops. Let them know you're taping, after you roll tape.
The best thing to do is to speak with an attorney right away; in my book someone with both criminal and civil rights backgrounds.
Posted 31 months ago.
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Thank you for your thoughts - Yes, I confessed to photography, but photography is not a crime.
The cops were coordinated to arrive at the same time, and it seemed like a squad. I'm sure it's in their database and will be for eternity. They never forget anything.
I must be stupid to talk with them after all the cops have done to my family. I consider myself a good guy, on their side but I am realizing from what everyone here is saying, that's foolish. I will not authorize searches ever again unless they can hand me a warrant. I will minimize as much as possible, what I say to them. I have started carrying a little digital camcorder with me. (hopefully they don't shoot me thinking it was a gun)
It's been over a year, do you think I should still go through the expense of talking to an attorney?
Posted 31 months ago.
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So, for example, if they're looking for a kidnapped child, they can't look in the silverware drawer.
There's a technical problem with that example, since in that situation they would almost certainly constitute exigent circumstances, and they would not need a warrant. That said, anything they found in your silverware drawer would probably be thrown out later for the reasons Tom articulates.
Posted 31 months ago.
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"In addition to photographing kids in public, in most jurisdictions you have the right to videotape cops"
In all jurisdictions, since as I recall, this question was settled by the Supreme Court.
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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akagoldfish (a group admin) edited this topic 31 months ago.
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The thing about wanting an attorney can get caught in a two-step convolution.
The cop says "You don't have a right to an attorney until you are arrested."
The attorney once told me, "You don't have to answer any questions."
Then fine Mr. Cop, I am excercising my right not to answer any questions unless you let me have an attorney.
There is where cops start playing games with half truths.
One of the NYPD people tried stating the "no attorney' trick in this discussion yesterday:
www.flickr.com/photos/yukonblizzard/4078833269/
Posted 31 months ago.
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as akagoldfish says in USA you have "right to videotape cops" but for those of you who maybe crossing the pond at anytime, i should point out that under new laws you can not do that in UK in some circumstances and there is no debate its in back of police van questions and in one case i've read about on the next plane home
Posted 31 months ago.
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@akagoldfish "In all jurisdictions, since as I recall, this question was settled by the Supreme Court."
Yes, however that hasn't kept local and regional "illegal recording" laws off the books, or officers in certain jurisdictions from arresting videographers.
@HTC "It's been over a year, do you think I should still go through the expense of talking to an attorney? "
My bad, I hadn't realized your incident was awhile back. If it were me, I'd have followed up, just to get clear of it. It's up to your own comfort level - the statute of limitations is unknown, since they never alleged any particular law was broken.
Posted 31 months ago.
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