|
Ouch - you can buy a second hand Leica for that.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
... but a Leica won't make your pictures better. I'm pretty sure this course will.
Hey -- nice course! There's a street photo course offered in Vancouver where they suggest all students have a camera with macro capability. Macro!
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
@john: taking "If your pictures aren't good enough, you're not close enough." to a whole new level
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
Waxy,
You ain't seen nothin'. I'm pretty sure my last photography class avoided the term "Street Photography" so they could drop all the street constraints wholesale, even though each class outing was done as a typical street outing. It was horrible dude. Tight telephoto headshots (teacher's favorite focal length: 85mm), the teacher showing work slathered in PS filters, pictures of pets and animals (the name of the course was "Photographing People"), street performers, weird crops, smiling kids, ack! Everyone in the class should have got an honorary "Please Don't Waste Our Time" degree.
Bleh.
Originally posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
Mark_H edited this topic 10 months ago.
|
|
|
@James. Ha! I never thought about it that way. Ok. So, if you think Gilden is cook, just wait til I show you some pores and nose hair.
@Mark. Oy. That sounds awful. But what did the teach think of your Kung Fu style?
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
John
Are you serious?
*buys macro lens*
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
Ha. Have I never seen that? Mark, your jacket strikes me as intensely Pacific Northwest, something from a character on Twin Peaks.
You could get four and a half of my Leicas for this price. But then you'd just have four and a half cameras. If you only take one workshop, this is probably the one to take. It's the Cadillac of street photo workshops, although Snoop would say I meant "the Lexus," but I ain't know it.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
Someday I might be able to afford a class, but I doubt I'll ever be able to afford that kind of class, much less be able to travel that far to attend it. It sounds nice, though.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
Yeah - that course is damn expensive. Works out to be over GBP30 per hour. Or GBP600 per hour for all 20 students. I'd suggest that money could be better spent on photobooks.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
Yes, expensive, but photobooks don't rightly do the same thing as a workshop, at least, not in the short run.
@Rrrryan. Totally. Serious.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
Who are the types of people that take these courses? I can only imagine retired people or people with money who don't have to work. Who can take off of life for 6 weeks 10-5 everyday and pay that kind of money, besides senior citizens? I have always been curious about what and who can take these kind of workshops.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
John - maybe. But reading photobooks with an open and enquiring mind has the potential to improve someone more. And the books last.
Shveckle - I could be wrong, but I think the course is only on Saturdays. If it was every day for 6 weeks, GBP1500 would not be too bad.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
"Everyday" vs "every day." Different. Just sayin'.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
Funny, at first I had no idea who these two guys are and I wondered how they could charge this amount. Then I see on their bio that they are "Street Photography Now" alumni. They also have some exhibitions under their belt so I guess this is how one makes money from street photography. I have to admit that with the exception of a few pictures, I wasn't impressed with much of the work in "Street Photography Now". However, I know it's a popular book (my local library has a copy and it's always checked out and on hold for others) so I suppose they will get some people to take the course. Other then the slidshows and lectures, which one can get at any major city college at a fraction of the cost, they intend to teach their students to see potential street shots. I'm curious how they intend to do that. I've always felt that one either has it, or they don't. It cannot be taught. But hey, if they get enough students and these students feel they get their money's worth, then everyone happy as it should be.
Originally posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
Marc Todd edited this topic 10 months ago.
|
|
'I wasn't impressed with much of the work in "Street Photography Now".'
With such high standards it's only natural that a course like this would make no sense.
Evidently your skills are way beyond theirs. How much would you charge? I think I'd like to come study under you.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
I guess it is normal, 42 hours, like a private college course price, with 2 famous photogs giving the course (many college courses are not by famous in the field instructors).
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
@Marc - I'm under the impression that anybody can learn. It's not to say that everyone will be a Stuart or McLaren but I think that with a bit of guidance, and tens of thousands of photographs, most people can increase their success rate.
@two cute - Some people don't learn from books too well. There are many ways to learn and hands-on is one of the best, I think. But, to each their own. I love books but I can't afford them at the moment. Of course, there's always the library and museums but I still think for many people, having someone give advice and critiques to your photos can go a long way. Books do not give critiques.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
Marc: They're quite well known in street photography (and photo in general, I'd imagine) circles, and were well before that book came out.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
I guess those of us on this side of the pond didn't get the memo before the book came out. Anyway 6 ft white rabbit, come out to LA and I'll take you out shooting free of charge. What you will learn will be worth slightly less then what you will pay for it ;-). Gotta shoot film though so I can look at your contact sheets. True story - at the end of a photography course at Santa Monica City College (which I took so I could have a darkroom to print in) about five years ago one of the students approached me and asked if he could work as an assistant to me. He added that he would work for free. I thanked him but told him I had no need for an assistant. Out of curiosity, I asked him why he was willing to work for free. He told me that he liked my work and thought he could learn from me by observing me shoot. I was flattered and thanked him again but told him that photography cannot be taught. "One can learn the basics like exposure, developing and printing like we had just completed in this course, but after that it's all trial and error" I went on to say.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him find it within himself.- Galileo
What do you reckon the class hand-out notes would be worth on the black-market?
Originally posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
Tony Martin (NT) edited this topic 10 months ago.
|
|
I buy a photography book about once a month if I can and I've learnt more from them than I have from my btec national diploma, and 2 years of a degree in photography. The class looks interesting, but not at that price. I'd have a bookshelf any day.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
Oh yeah and I was once asked to bring in some prints and give a short lecture to some beginning students at Pasadena City College. I did (free of charge) but it was a bit surreal because as I stood in front of the class showing a print of a couple in a train station all I could think to say was "Here's a picture of a couple in a train station". Real inspiring huh?
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
waste of money if you ask me.
People pay for the experience of hanging out with famous photographers and receiving direct feedback from them. That is kind of cool I guess, but rather frivolous. I do not need to pay Matt Stuart to tell me my pictures suck and why, people here already do that for free. And seriously, what kind of "secrets" would I learn and how would they automatically improve my photos?
It is like attending a course on brain surgery with the world's best neurologist. He might provide great insight into his trade, but taking the course will not qualify you to perform a successful surgery. The practice and personal experience are essential and no course can give you that.
You can collect all the info, all the tips, all the books you want, from all the sources you can imagine; at the end, you still have to hit the streets and spend hours working on your own craft.
there must be like, 236,542 ways to better spend that money.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
I met a few people in Australia who had a class with Trent Parke. I have no idea how much they paid but if they were sanctioned Magnum classes, and I believe they were, all enjoyed them and would do it again and greatly enjoyed the experience. Separately, I have a friend who took a Magnum class and said it was great and worth the money. None of these people are wealthy from what I can tell.
Some people buy Leica's and their photography is still in the shits. Some people buy loads of books and their photography is still in the shits. To each their own I suppose but if I were going to spend money now on learning photography, and I have in the past, this seems like a pretty good way, IMO.
@Charlie - I can't recall if it was you, but didn't you take a class from Gilden?
ILPARM - Do neurologists intern before becoming a practicing doctor? Yes.. I think so. Or, at least, you'd better hope so before he/she operates on you...
Originally posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
John Goldsmith edited this topic 10 months ago.
|
|
|
Yeah - but I didn't pay for that class and probably wouldn't pay to take any classes unless they were either (a) technical (e.g. LF or darkroom printing) or (b) business related (e.g. how to get grants, make contacts etc). While it was great to meet Gilden, most of the course was critique. I feel that I have a pretty good idea what makes a good picture, although one thing Gilden did drill home to me was the importance of not relying on gimmicks.
And I think the Magnum classes are quite a lot cheaper...
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
I, too, am sometimes asked to talk about photography and stuff...that's all I got.
/anecdote
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
I dunno, do you think they'll have a Groupon for that?
^_^
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
Wow, Marc. Wow.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
Great shooters but It seems very overpriced,each of these guys will be pulling in 350 pounds per hour each if they fill the course.Good luck to them if they can pull it off.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
I think a TP workshop would be worth attending if he explained how he got some of those amazing shots.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
It's funny to me how easy street shooting appeared to be until I actually tried to do it. Here are some of the issues I've dealt with when I first started. and a few basic notes about solutions( Veterans need only read for amusement).
Shutter doesn't snap at right time - Turnoff autofocus.
Unwanted Motion blur when trying to be unobtrusive - higher shutter speed.
Inconsistent exposure - notice when in light or shade and changes there of, then make appropriate changes(constantly).
Out of focus or wrong focus subject - find your Depth Of Field, get a feel for it, then adjust it constantly as required.
Key background elements out of focus - it's the f-stops!! Balance aperture and shutter speed(last resort up the ISO and try again)
To grainy - Can a real street capture be to grainy?
Zoomed in shots(this might just be me) - after finding focal distance remember to pull back out to wide before shooting(only applicable with zoom lens).
Angry and confrontational subjects - While it is legal in the U.S. to shoot people in a "public" environment, street people and drugs addicts can occasionally be temperMENTAL and might not understand the dignity of the struggle you are trying capture. When the razor blade comes out--------- RUN!!!!!!!! or possibly ask before taking there picture, it's your call.
Originally posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
hendoprofits edited this topic 10 months ago.
|
|
|
I would imagine/hope that this course is not for beginners, but those that know how to use a camera. Otherwise Matt and Stuart would be wasting their time, as would students who would be paying a premium to learn technical stuff that they could quite easily find the answer from by thinking for themselves or internet forums.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
I did the Matt and Stephen 2 day weekend workshop at the School of Life back in May 2009. I think that cost around £250. £1500 does seem very steep.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
Sorry, if I distracted from the subject of the discussion. I just did a slight edit to improve my post(mostly to correct the improper bold text). It's a gift(even if you have to pay) for experienced and excellent Photographers to teach you.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
from a financial point of view, it's a very bad investment - unless you are going to go into holding photo workshops that is.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
I dunno... if I had £1500 to burn, and I lived in or near London, I think I would do it - it sounds like fun, and fun is good.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
I'd do it if I were rich and had the time, I guess. Then again, if I were rich I'd quit my jobs, buy an M9 and just wander.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
people spend money on things they enjoy doing, and why not.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
Oh, and I'd take one of those space station trips, too. With my M9.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
Some of the naysayers in this group would never pay to take a workshop anyway. So you moaning about the price of this one, is like me moaning about, well, anything that I would never buy and can't afford anyway.... lets say a cliché like a ferrari.
You have to realise that you aren't the target audience for this product.
This is also true for those whom the price is simply out of reach from.
For some people (or their parents) the sum of money being asked for this course is a pittance. In the real world, people earn differing amounts and value things differently to you.
Products aren't always designed and marketed to mass audiences.
This is a niche product with a niche price tag.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
The only thing that bothers me about the high fee is the number of places (up to 20) it caters to. Even if I could afford the money I would still question how much individual time I'd get for mentoring and reviewing my work.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
Surely everyone would be speaking about this from their own personal standpoint anyway, no? I mean, most people are well aware of the relativity of wealth and their current position in the scheme of things. Even before you mentioned it.
So, from my standpoint, it's too expensive, it's a 'not marketed at me' crap investment.
edit for afterthought - I would go on a course if it were reasonably priced and involved a longer (at least 6 months!) working relationship with a photographer whose work I'm in to.
Originally posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
senor evez edited this topic 10 months ago.
|
|
|
but that's my point, why bitch and moan about something that isn't marketed at you, saying it's too expensive?
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
erm...yes, you are quite right. I should stop having an opinion - or at least expressing it.
Look man, I don't think anyone was bitching or moaning, they were just saying what they thought about the course. I'm sure it would be great for those prepared/able to spend the money but a bit expensive for most. Obviously you don't think that is interesting or valid, oh well.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
"why bitch and moan about something that isn't marketed at you, saying it's too expensive?"
let's (not) start a Leica kvetch thread
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
I think it's a fair discussion, especially since posting it here implies that it is aimed at us. But at the same time I agree that such discussions can tip over into just dissing rather than discussing.
It is bloody hard to make money as a photographer as people know. If these guys have built up their value to the extent that enough people do consider it worthwhile, then that's got to be respected.
It's kind of tricky to know if it's valuable to you unless you've actually tried it or something similar before. Even then, it's going to be very much down to the communication skills, energy and enthusiasm of the leaders. Not only them, but the participants. How are they choosing them? These things can be about spending time with people who already have a certain level of skill, interest and experience.
It's an interesting point, that time can be worth as much as money. You can offer things for free and people won't do them if they don't perceive them as valuable. Once there is a reputation of value people can pay a lot.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
Dunno. For me I think there is something a bit skewed about street workshops. I think photography should be about sharing knowledge and experience rather than charging people a hell of a lot of money for a course like this. How simple would it be to simply do a google hangout for example? I think street photography is democratic in nature and it doesn't lend itself to teaching anyway (unless you are just teaching basic technique). What can you teach people? You either have it or you don't, you either know a good picture or you dont. And by showing work of great street photographs you are just making money by talking about someone else's work.
I see it as opportunistic.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
And I agree with the above. People can say what they want about the cost of the course. What are discussion threads for?
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
Charlie, let's rephrase that a bit:
"I think being a lawyer should be about sharing knowledge and experience rather than charging people a hell of a lot of money to help them out in their troubles like this."
Making a living on the basis of knowledge and experience is, well, just how it's done.
A lawyer's hourly rate is based on success and earned prestige; why should it be any different for these guys?
"I think street photography is democratic in nature"
I tend to think it's a meritocracy.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
No bitching here.I am just pleased and surprised that there is a market for SP instruction at this price point.Obviously these guys know their market.Lot of daddies out there with deep pockets when it comes to their kids, among others.Opportunity abound for those with the drive.
Originally posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
Philip Ward edited this topic 10 months ago.
|
|
|
Was no surprise what side of the fence you'd come out on 6 ft. Wait for an admin view and reply accordingly...
Photography is different to law. I firmly believe that pretty much anyone can become a photographer with enough passion and time. Look at enough pictures, think for yourself, study on the Internet and have courage. That's it. I dont think that's the case with law. Given that it's a profession that deliberately limits it's numbers there will always be that inbalance.
So maybe cut the pathetic lawyer references and go fuck yourself.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
I agree with 6ft in that I get very, very frustrated with this 'art should be free' ethos. It's based on 'you enjoy it so it's not real work'.
Actually it's really based on supply and demand. People love doing the work so supply outstrips demand. You can't give it away.
Unless you build value around your product which is partly yourself.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
Charlie: in this case the admin's view was 'don't bitch and moan'.
6ft's point was that jobs like lawyer, accountant and so on are rarely associated with 'free' or 'share for free' whereas art and photography are.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
@frankie: " posting it here implies that it is aimed at us."
it's more a sharing service, letting other people know that something is happening, opening up discussions around it. It doesn't imply anything.
I'm all for discussions, it's just the bitching and moaning that I'm not.
(this place gets tiresome sometimes).
I've not read anyone say why workshops/courses are bad, just that it's too expensive, or they're just not interested in that sort of thing.
who cares?
what would people prefer from a workshop? how much would people want to pay? who would they have lead it? what sort of material would they cover?
I'd personally prefer to hear things like that, as well as stuff from peoples personal experience rather than hearsay and presumptions (the internet has enough of that).
Personally I studied on a photojournalism course a few years ago, the course was highly regarded amongst UK newspapers (most of the industry had studied on it at some point), and at the time I was thinking I'd either sit this course for £1500 for 1 year, or do a 3 year course at a university and pay out £10k.
The course didn't offer any sort of advice regarding being a freelancer, how to survive or anything like that. This is what I thought I wanted.
Instead it allowed me to have time with photography and see that the route I thought I wanted to go was in fact something I couldn't bring myself to do.
It pushed me to make contacts and product work I enjoyed despite my tutor slating (this is my olympic dreams series), it didn't give me anything other than the confidence to get stuff for myself.
looking back now I'm happy I studied on the course, but at the time I regretted being there. £1500 was little to pay for the life experiences that have come after it, and this is coming from someone with little money.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
Fuck you too, Charlie.
My view is based on a 25+ year career as an art professional, and guys like you who devalue that profession, and the education and the perseverance that it has taken to make a living at it, give me a severe pain in the ass.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
I think the "bitching and moaning" is justified as most of us would sign up for that course if the price was more down to earth.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
They take good photos, but could be crap teachers...
Not a clue if that's the case, but taking a good photo and helping to people to do it are very different things. Many courses are built around a famous writer/photographer/artist... The career teacher doesn't get a look in.
I hope that those who do the course do it for fun, not with any hope of actually recouping the money back through selling work.
The Mimi Mollica course does seem good though by all accounts and maybe more suited to the sort of people who hang around here.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
some people spend 1,500 dollars for a night with an escort. Personally, I would rather jerk off. Cost is relative. There are 43 thousand people here, I imagine a few of them have liquiddy assets.\
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
I don't have an opinion about this class beyond yes, it's expensive and yes, it sounds like fun. Stuart and McLaren are great photographers but as far as I know, of untested quality as teachers. I took a class at a local art school once with a really talented photographer, artist and writer who was a mess as a teacher. You could learn from him if you pinned him down and asked him specific questions, but he was way too disorganized in his presentation to really teach anything. It was okay. Knowing how to learn is a pretty useful skill to practice, anyway.
What I'm finding more interesting in this discussion is the ongoing clash between the competing philosophies. Photographic skill is either innate: What can you teach people? You either have it or you don't, you either know a good picture or you dont.
Or it can be learned: I firmly believe that pretty much anyone can become a photographer with enough passion and time.
Of course I just now realized that both those illustrative quotations came from the same poster. So maybe it's not that much of a debate. But still, I tend to agree with JG/W that people can learn (and by extension, learn from others) to get better--this is, of course, also true for law as a number of successful jailhouse lawyers in the US have demonstrated.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
Why sell something for a monkey when you know you can get a grand eh? The problem is knowing how many people are willing to shell out that amount. This is the second one they've done so it probably won't sell out so quickly. After that they're likely to be chasing a dwindling market for any future workshops at that fee. The Guardian also takes a substantial cut of the takings too.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
ye, people acting like all that money goes into the pockets of the lecturers don't realise what goes into planning workshops and lectures.
For starts, theres the planning! seriously, if someone can just turn up and wing it and be good, fair play, they deserve the because they are amazing! simple as.
But beyond this there's other casts than paying the photographers. marketing, cost of venues, travelling costs, consumables, payment transaction fees etc. etc.
Anyway, if you would love to do the workshop, but can't afford the cost, speak to the organisers, they may be able to point you in the right direction to get funding or may simply take that onboard for future sessions.
talking about it here does nothing.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
6 ft.
I couldn't give a shit what your background is. I'm not devaluing it. I'm just calling out rip off artists. Christ even the Magnum photographers charge less and their classes are smaller.
The Guardian of all newspapers should know better, as should the two photographers who, if they had a passion for the subject, should charge a lot less.
And James. I've given my views on the value of street workshops above. Edit. And most of what is discussed here does nothing. But we can still discuss no? Or will this thread get closed as it offends the sensibilities of a jaded admin?
Originally posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
two cute dogs edited this topic 10 months ago.
|
|
|
Someday I would love to take a Ernesto Bazan workshop:
www.bazanphotos.com/workshops/index.html
on the right you can see the student work, his workshops seem to do well, been doing them for 10 years and you can see the students and their work right there. And he has many workshops per year.
I like him as a person, his photography and the idea of going to the countries he has them in sound awesome! but it is really expensive, I forgot how much the workshop costs, but you obviously have to pay for your own airfare and then where they stay, I think he tries to stay in hostels a lot. I asked him the price once. it is also around the clock attention. Someday I really really do want to go to one of those myself, it sounds like one of the most fun things for me to do, without my family exploring a new country with a group of photographers and also I am sure there is time to go off on my own. Other then those, I have not seen any other workshops I have been interested in.
PS - some of the student work is EXCELLENT! on his site, just click through the student work from the workshops.
Originally posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
shveckle edited this topic 10 months ago.
|
|
Wow, there are some high tempers here. Too much time absorbing the aggro of the street I guess, guys. Let's not start a riot, ahem.
It's a high price yes, but if it's too high for the market then they just won't fill the course. My guess is that someone out there will be willing to fork out, for the right reasons or the wrong ones, and they'll probably have a great time - as I understand it, apart from being great street photographers, Matt and Stephen have been running workshops for some time.
I don't understand the 'Art should be free' argument though. Quite why the people who live pretty much on the breadline most of the time should be the ones to take the fall when we don't expect doctors, lawyers, masseurs, stunt dog trainers and personal shoppers to, I don't get. Must be pretty hard to make any money with street photography, so if they've turned to teaching, heck why not - we've all got explore new revenue streams these days.
As to whether courses and workshops 'work', I think that's the more interesting question. I've always had niggling dislike of 'creative writing courses', but then the good ones have turned out Ian McEwan, Kazuo Ishiguro etc... Some things probably can't be taught, and no course is going to make a bad writer/photographer/painter a good one. But they might make a good one better, and it's pretty arrogant to assume no-one has anything to teach you.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
I want a course taught by Marc Todd and hendoprofits, how much you guys charge?
£1500 is not that much, people spend that on a camera body that will depreciate 50% in three years. But yes I am cynical about workshops, though at least this isn't some 4 hour OCF job from someone who read the entire Strobist blog. There are a lot of workshop pros out there (you know what I mean) and these guys aren't that. This is several weeks, and sounds like the sort of opportunity where you get out of it what you put in. Could really open doors for the right person.
For me I think there is something a bit skewed about street workshops. I think photography should be about sharing knowledge and experience rather than charging people a hell of a lot of money for a course like this.
On the level of taking a photowalk with someone and sharing thoughts, sure. This is six 7-hour sessions. Plus all the work outside of that to set everything up, organization, planning, etc. Now, maybe you have the free time to do that for twenty people, but I sure as hell don't and I guarantee I have more time on my hands than those guys (I dunno, maybe they don't have girlfriends/wives). They deserve to be compensated for that time; so the take is £30,000, 42 hours of the actual workshop plus I'd guess at least an equal amount of time on the front- and backend, split between the two of them is £178/hour, don't forget the Guardian is taking a cut too. Not sure how it works over there but I guess they pay taxes on that as well, in the end with a few wild guesses and grand assumptions on my part they are probably taking home less than £100/hour each.
It's not just a Google hangout. This is not sarcastic, but I would love to see you or any number of folks in this group put together a workshop, especially if you can do it at a lower price. The work that comes out of that would surely be interesting.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
isn't it a bit like attending a series of master classes by a couple of renowned musicians? There's nothing like witnessing a serious practitioner actually doing what he is renowned for at first hand, and having that practitioner critique your work/technique etc can only be useful and valuable. if I earned about ten times more than i do and had several consecutive free saturdays i would do it like a shot. Too many 'if's. Good luck to them.
Jon
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
They are riding on their names. I'd say that a good twenty to thirty people in this group could "teach" street and give critique. Christ, street photography is not hard. It's about perserverance, observation, luck, timing and editing.
I would imagine that The Guardian are sponsoring it. So they would be footing the bill for a lot of the costs. I also reckon one of their interns is doing the grunt work.
I don't think art teaching should be free. But street photography isn't really something that has a value anyway. People do it because they love it. So this looks like opportunism to me.
And how can Matt Stuart teach luck? Most of his images are based on that after all. I love his work, but it's fundamentally unteachable.
Give me a workshop that has practical or technical value anyday.
Originally posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
two cute dogs edited this topic 10 months ago.
|
|
|
And how can Matt Stuart teach luck? Most of his images are based on that after all.
Come on, that's like saying that the guys who consistently rank at the top in poker tournaments are just lucky too.
Most "luck" is just recognizing opportunity.
So this looks like opportunism to me.
I agre that many -- probably most -- photo workshops are opportunistic. Find people who have enough spare money to buy into the hobby and relieve them of some more of it. From the description, this doesn't sound like that kind of workshop, but who knows, maybe you're right.
Wonder if we could ever find someone who's been through one of these.
Originally posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
Bennett V edited this topic 10 months ago.
|
|
Well dont confuse price with value.
I dont feel like Im able to value whether it is too expensive based on the little knowledge I have about the workshop. Now, if you ask who are able to pay that money, I guess thats a different story. Or who is willing to spend that money on street-photography. But thats not to be confused with the discussion whether this workshop actually is worth it or not. Personally I think the last question is more interesting discussing here.
I would like to know what this workshop can offer before staring comparing prices. You would not pay the same for a random picture taken at a street as what you would pay for a meyerowitz either. Because of the same reasons I guess.
Price and value is not the same.
There are a lot of workshops around that are affordable, but most likely damaging and harmful. With no value whatsoever. People pay for them.
I would be interested to see what they give in this workshop. Education is very expensive, and there's just no sense in the argument of getting it cheaper. Getting 'what' cheaper?
As James stated earlier, organising costs. (especially if its done well) So you pay £50 per hour witch has to cover the hours the teachers spend in organising, preparing and all the material costs. I havent got enough information to know if the price you pay is fair or not.
As I said, the clue is probably in the content . And I suppose that if these guys charge that much it is because it has a bit more to offer that some random self-proclaimed 'street-photographer' charge people for listening to their rambling. Just saying.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
People pay hundred of dollars for other one day only workshops which are glorified "hang out time", so this isn't too bad. This is worth it for people who really want to get into the genre I'm guessing, at least you're learning from established shooters.
People should really try to pick up everything on their own and find their own path and voice in their photography though.
Originally posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
davecsparty edited this topic 10 months ago.
|
|
|
I'm a hard core free market capitalist guy through and through. So again, I say bully for them if they get people to shell out this money. Sure they are riding on their name, but really, who wouldn't? Well, I probably wouldn't but this is why I don't own any businesses. I'd run them into the ground in no time. Whenever I see a course offered by a Magnum member, it's in the same ball park. I guess this is what the market is nowadays. Here in LA we have the Julia Dean workshops which I think offers a street photography course. I don't know the cost but most courses are in the four figure range as well. I think that once one has established a name for oneself, going the teaching route is not uncommon. Winogrand taught various times in his life, as did Arbus and many others. I just learned yesterday that Mozart took on students as well. Hey, there are bills to be paid and sometimes the paid assignments just aren't rolling in enough.
Originally posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
Marc Todd edited this topic 10 months ago.
|
|
|
Two things:
Why are ad-hominem retorts so common in these threads?
Charlie is a lawyer yeah, but it's irrelevant to any opinion. Challenge his opinion not the profession he happens to be in.
Two: some of the best conferences I've attended, in my profession, have been the bare-bones cover-costs ones. The pricier ones have had nicer food and nicer equipment but the discussions tended to be more "over produced".
That's not to say this one is overpriced. I'm sure there are wedding photography workshops that go by as much --tho' as mentioned, those are somewhat predicated on getting a monetary return on investment.
SP is more about passion. In the Open Software movement, people are very passionate and are very open about sharing knowledge. Conversely, there is proprietary SW like Apple's and people know it's about profit, firstly --and people are ok to pay for that. I guess the dissonance is taking what is a passion and leveraging it for profit. It'd be like taking some Open software, repackaging it and charging money. People do that, but can be seen as done in poor taste.
But I also agree, ultimately, that it depends on what value you find in it. If you can attend, attend, if you can't or don't want to don't.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
Um, wasn't 6 Ft using the lawyer example to say 'these people are professionals too"? I guess since it was addressed to Charlie, he chose lawyer instead of another job. How is that ad-hominem retort?
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
"It'd be like taking some Open software, repackaging it and charging money."
how about taking open software, branding it, giving it away for free but offering a support framework at an additional cost :)
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
@krameroneill. Hmm, you're right -I misread. In that example he did it as an illustration. It was non-the-less a dig pointed at him, veiled tho it be. I think my complaint is that often people respond to the person rather than to the question. That's not to say that ad-hominems are always fallacious.
@James, yes, except, they are not releasing a video or the "lectures", or what have you, on say, Lanyrd, or similar. Do you think someone might take notes and post notes and presentations somewhere? If they did, I think I'd feel satisfied they met the spirit of Openness.
Originally posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
maartyn edited this topic 10 months ago.
|
|
|
maartyn: I think Charlie misread [or misinterpreted] too. At which point it all got ad-hominem-y back at Two Yard Rabbit, at which point...eh, who cares. You know what this thread needs more of? Closer readings! ...at least that's the memo on "this" side of the pond.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
well, their images are out there for us all to see, there is a brief lesson plan on the guardian site, plus there are forums etc where people could ask questions.
The whole open software thing doesn't really compare tho, we're talking about end results vs content creators.
I feel what this relates to in software terms is more a bunch of developers going on a course with some experts who can help them code better, maybe understand what it is they are trying to achieve and hopefully get a better product at the end of it.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
It's not a perfect analogy, but it works, for the most part.
Here's a take. Maybe it's worth a try:
Someone who puts workshops together get a group of good instructors (such as the above) do the usual fee thing, but, also, release a video along with slides and any other material for free with a "Donate" action button ala RadioHead. That might actually increase the audience, and, thus future attendees. Now, sure, some people who would have paid, would now be satisfied by the free material, but others who were not reached before might be willing to pay for the in-person workshop. In many cases this experiment results in positive revenue -tho not always.
I guess this harkens to BryanF's favorite punching bag, the freemium model.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
watching online will never bring personal feedback or direction, which I suppose is one of the main reasons people will attend these workshops.
I think this is where most people don't think they are worth the cost. But these people will have invested quite a bit of time establishing networks of peers who they can trust the opinions of.. maybe £1.5k or more could have been earned working during this time? who knows, but the tradeoff doesn't seem that far off in my ill thought out logic.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
I agree with you about the personal feedback and immediate feedback aspects. I think that's why people would attend despite the content being available --if they released it.
Where I think making the material available could help is where it would help people decide if they thought it would be beneficial (in a cost benefit analysis) to them. As it is, all they have to go by are the reputation and the description offered. The rest is assumption based on the above.
Originally posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
maartyn edited this topic 10 months ago.
|
|
|
having some sort of testimonial system or similar from past participants could also work.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
Nick's Photographing London weekend at The School of Life seems a bargain in comparison:
www.theschooloflife.com/Weekends/Photographing-London
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
@david. kinda does and kinda doesn't.
£97.50 is obviously better financially, but his class is also limited to 20 students, that's half the time per student, plus only one opinion.
I think they're both in the ballpark of average prices tho?
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
I think Nick sometimes gets David Gibson to help out by giving a presentation but I'm not sure what else. He'll be in Beirut that weekend so he won't be there then. But I agree, it's so difficult to evaluate these things purely based on a photographers reputation. I did TEFL in Spain before I took photography more seriously and it is a different game altogether.
Posted 10 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
Good thing it's not going to happen in Long Beach, California. www.techdirt.com/articles/20110815/23584515540/police-say...
Posted 9 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
I dont know, 1500 to "Master the Art of Street Photography" is probably not that bad, Imagine saving yourself from endless hours and years in endless frustration and confusion. And with no Master- warranty, not even a humble 'being close to master' - one
On the other hand, what anyone at all need to "Master the Art of Street Photography" for is still a huge undiscovered mystery you can spend some amusing hours thinking about.
Posted 9 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
"I would imagine that The Guardian are sponsoring it"
I have no idea what the arrangement is
But The Guardian, despite being the world's liberal voice, or whatever, is not a lovely charity sponsoring things.
It's aim is to make a PROFIT. (Although I think the paper itself has never made money, and is propped up by other titles in the Guardian media group, like the Manchester small ads car paper things.)
I only get The Guardian a few times a week at most but even I have noticed the big ads for these courses in the paper and weekend mag. The audience is so huge that the course will probably be full.
I have mixed feelings as well. Obviously, it will mainly attract the well off. But there's plenty of other stuff in the aspirational weekend Guardian Mag I can't afford either (restaurant reviews - hmm, £100 for a meal for two).
I would guess that the price is fixed by setting a maximum number of attendees and then guestimating the maximum price that will ensure the course is just full.
But then again, there's so little money in photography I don't begrudge people who are good at photography and teaching it and promoting it taking a large wad of dosh from people who don't mind parting with cash without anyone twisting their arm.
As has been pointed out, there are other, cheaper options.
Posted 9 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
When The Guardian and The School of Life stop selling out these workshops every time they offer them, I guess they'll stop asking the photographers to do them.
I find them extremely hard work to do but also very rewarding, to see people on the last evening standing up and presenting their work from the last 48hrs to the group and speaking like artists about the decisions they've made, its fantastic.
For a weekend workshop I get less than half my commercial day rate, it's not really a money thing for me. I meet 20 nice people, inspire them a little, show them how to see things a bit differently and show them some strategies that have been successful for me. We discuss street photography over lunch, over dinner and out on the street, it's a very intensive two days and everyone goes home exhausted.
Posted 9 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
A true representation of the rise and popularity of the street / candid photography movement as of late (2 yrs) given the major recent promotions and social media advances?
For better or for worse I suppose. Plenty of people buy expensive motorbikes here, only to ride them a few days a year when there's not a cloud in the sky. I'm sure it's money well spent to them. It's all relative.
Originally posted 9 months ago.
(permalink)
JB.Maher edited this topic 9 months ago.
|
|
|
And not everyone has the luxury of trolling around and sieving through Flickr all day trying to pick up sprinkles of good advice. If one's got the cash and an interest in getting some quick experience and advice from a respected artist, go for it. Take the workshop.
Posted 9 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
That School of Life is an interesting sounding set up. I'm sure I've run across it before and then forgotten all about it again. Sophie Howarth is a founding director and Martin Parr is an ambassador. Hmmm.
Posted 9 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
interesting, but quite expensive, even though it's cheaper than Magnum workshop.
Posted 9 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
Even if flickr and internet exist, you cant really compare anything online to the possibility of meet up with people in person.
To discuss, or listen to someone skilled and insightful will do something real for your photography.
There has been a lot of workshops around this summer, many organised by photographers well known by regulars here in the group and in my opinion people interested in this would take huge advantage of participating.
Discussing work in person is a must and cant be replaced by internet-forums.( Not even close.)
Posted 9 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
I can vouch for the School of Life courses.
Well run, well thought out courses. I paid silly money (£400) to do their Isle of Wight odd B&B with Martin Parr and Simon Roberts weekend last year. It was great, and whilst I didn't learn how to be Magnum photographer, I did have a great and inspiring time. You and 10-16 others are with them from the breakfast table to the bar from Friday through to Sunday. He then sold some of his books books at good prices that if i'd been clever i'd have resold and more than paid for the course.
Compared to the Guardian one, it now seems good value.
It really comes down to if you can afford it, it's worth it.
Posted 9 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
I don't think price is really a factor here. The main question is "Can street photography be taught"? If it can, then it's probably worth any price they want to charge. If not, then no price will suffice.
I think people will have different answers to this question. I myself am not really sure how to answer it. Sometimes I think no. Sometimes it is yes. It's a bit like learning jazz. You can probably learn a lot of fine technique by studying with a master. But no workshop is going to turn someone into Coltrane. You either are or you aren't. I think street photography has parallels, in both abstrusity and financial payback (or lack of it).
Originally posted 9 months ago.
(permalink)
shoot1ask2 edited this topic 9 months ago.
|
|
If you buy Justin a slice of pizza and a Red Stripe he'll let me follow him around Manhattan for a day.
Seriously, if I had the cash and there was a US equivalent I'd be all over it.
Posted 9 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
By the way a discussion sort of similar to this happened on Google+ whether photography can be taught. It was discussion around an article, the article is an interesting read.
plus.google.com/110905036002049793323/posts/A7FKFacEX1T
Posted 9 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
you can learn technique. No one can teach you to have an eye I believe, if that was true everyone would be superb photographers. I have been taking photos just as long as dirtyharry, but the difference is that he has an eye, vision and obviously far more life experience. This workshop may not give you an eye, but it may set you on the path of honing your technique. If anyone of you have ever taken music lessons (I used to play violin in grade school), you would know that the actual learning comes during practice, but you only become aware of mistakes around a master. How else could we know of our mistakes if no one ever told us?
In any event, this workshop ideally will teach you to better make those necessary calculations before you take the photo, perhaps it will be like the "image critique thread" on the street. But it won't give you an eye, that is for certain.
However I have the feeling that this workshop may not be what people hope it will be, after all 20 is a lot of people....
oh on a side note, am I the only one who would find it most amusing to see charlie kirk and harvey 6ft white rabbit duke it out in a life or death steel cage match
Posted 9 months ago.
(permalink)
|
|
|
I think street photography can be taught, that does not mean that it can be taught so anyone who takes a course in it will be "successful". That all depends how one defines successful anyway. I think that one can take a course and improve at a faster rate because of a course then on their own. Some people need and thrive with guidance better then without it.
I remember taking a BW printing course at SVA a long time ago before digital photography and people printing out their contact sheets then choosing which ones to print from the contact sheet. Sometimes the good photos were on that contact sheet but the photographer student would pick the ones that were not good, while next to the one he/she picked was a better one. It helped to have the class discuss the contact sheet and why everyone agreed upon one of the photos as opposed to another photo. People sometimes need help seeing to open their eyes. It was interesting to see a roll of 36 on a contact sheet and ask the student to pick one of their own to print, also interesting to then see what the teacher thought should be the one to print, and then interesting to see the class discuss which one to print. That all helps the photographer to see and that is extremely hard to do on the internet. I also think it is extremely rough with digital too. Not sure how it is done, people take a billion more photos, so looking through one 4G card is rough as compared to say meeting once a week and looking through a few rolls of film that each roll is printed on one contact sheet.
If I were to teach a class(which no one would want to take because I suck and stuff) I would force the students to come in with a cheap film SLR or any film camera and limit the amount of rolls to be brought in each week to say 3 rolls or under, print the contact sheets and this would be to limit one's self for the purposes of a class and discusion. The problem being with digital is that even if you force the students to say only bring in 50 photos, they will probably have to edit it down to that for the class (besides that people often delete photos in camera too). I would want in the beginning to not have the student edit anything down themselves at first because I noticed that that in itself was one of the biggest problems all of us students had, was our choice of editing our own photos.
Originally posted 9 months ago.
(permalink)
shveckle edited this topic 9 months ago.
|
|
The enter button is about 4 down on the right side on a Mac, not sure about PC, but probably the same...
Posted 9 months ago.
(permalink)
|
HCSP (Hardcore Street Photography) /
Discuss
Feed – Subscribe to HCSP (Hardcore Street Photography) discussion threads