MICROSOFT: KEEP YOUR EVlL GRUBBY HANDS OFF OF OUR FLICKR / Discuss

The Infamous Trench says:

I outline my thoughts on why Microsoft is much, much different than the others you mentioned (in words! *gasp*) over in this group.

Google outlines it pretty well in their blog.

In short: Yahoo and Google are Internet companies. Microsoft is a devout software company that is scared "boxed software" is a dying cupcake. Which it is.

There's the equation.

You do the math.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

Tarky7    says:

Microsoft = Dying Cupcake

I see an emerging marketing plan forming here, a bit oblique, but with excellent viral possibilities !
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

Jim Lindley says:

Yes. Google and Yahoo are internet companies. Microsoft fails the internet.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

chrstphre    says:

It's a continuum question.

Yes; Apple is more Evil than it once was,
but it was even more Evil about 10 years ago,
Ben & Jerry's is now Evil,
Yahoo is more incompetent than Evil,
Netflix has tasted Evil, and likes it.
Google is like the AntiChrist,
They are going to bring us 7 years of Utopian Bliss,
and then eat our brains.

But M$ has always been Evil,
It very nearly invented Evil.
When Evil was made in The Garden of Eden,
BG's was there stealing some before Gawd could throw out Adam & Eve.

Everything M$ touches turns to Evil.
Everything that M$ winks at is sullied & degraded.
Everything that M$ dreams of at night,
has it's own nightmares for ever after.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

The Infamous Trench says:

Therein, the fruit which introduced Man to The Knowledge of Good and Evil was apple-shaped dying cupcakes.

I want to draw a dead-cupcake tree now.

Ooo, and there probably were no fig leaves... it was cupcake wrappers they covered their naughty bits with.

"Biblical Mysteries Unraveling as Microsoft Moves in on Flickr"
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

clvrmnky says:

@Trench:

I'm not convinced this makes any sort of difference, though I'm not sure what "devout software company" means. They are not a software company. They are a tech company. And there is a difference.

I guess what I'm saying is that so many people had the exact same reaction to Yahoo those years ago: "Yahoo? Those guys fail the internet!" They were, and still are, the downmarket brand. This is reflected in their market cap.

Come on, does anyone actually admit to using crufty Y! messenger, Yahoo Mail or Yahoo groups? The only "visit my porn site" IM I get anymore is from Yahoo. I'm this close to telling the One! Last! Person! on my Y! list to switch to Gtalk, fer criminy.

Microsoft knows how to buy internet companies to leverage their brand. Hotmail is a reasonably successful example of this, though that success is often clumpy; different countries and regions tend to stick to one service or the next. This move by Microsoft is obviously a way to solidify their continental US presence.

Hey, they even have butterflies (http://www.littleyellowdifferent.com/change-it-to-the-butterflies/) [Yes, I get the irony of that link.]

My prediction: If this deal goes through, the majority of people here will never really know the difference. The few who care that much will leave (hey, come on over to 23 if you like) the day it happens, because all it takes is some weird difference or hiccough that convinces you to ditch a service.

Another prediction: Microsoft spins Flickr (and other brands) off as quickly as they can, because this deal, if it goes through, will kill their war chest.

And Google stands by wagging their finger, secretly glad it's happening. They are going to eat Microsoft's breakfast if this goes through.

This is s dumb deal, but it doesn't change the fact that I see no difference in who your overlords happen to be.

Look at it a different way; which would you rather have while tech companies start to tank around you as the US economy (except for a few sectors) continues to stutter:

- Massive layoffs at Yahoo (almost a sure thing)
- Massive buyout that actually keeps the company afloat. Have you /seen/ how much per share MSFT is offering? If I was a Y! employee, I'd be thinking about strategically playing my options right now.

Of course, Microsoft could layoff everyone, anyway.

Either way, don't get too attached to the owner of the Flickr brand. It's almost sure to change hands a few more times before the dust settles.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

Noktor-Matic says:

microsoft should just die on its own and not bring down any companies with it!! like seriously!! they're already dying!!! take vista for example thats what's making them lose money!!, the Xbox is the only thing keeping them alive now! honestly it will be the ONLY thing! if they take over yahoo then yeah yahoo will let them down too
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

The Infamous Trench says:

"devout software company" perhaps should have read "devout boxware company". My bad.

But Microsoft a tech company?

Show me proof of technology in MS products.

Please.

Also, where the hell do you think the "soft" comes from in the latter part of their ASPLOSIVELY ICONIC logo.

MICRO (as in: small things you can box)
SOFT (as in: you are wrong)
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

hunky    says:

microsoft is criminal. Convicted.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

eye of wally says:

@ 8-Bit Fujikon

you said
"microsoft should just die on its own and not bring down any companies with it!! like seriously!! they're already dying!!! take vista for example thats what's making them lose money!!,"

You might want to do a little more research on that one. Microsoft just reported RECORD profits, and had an increase of 20% because of Vista

Since Windows Vista became generally available one year ago, Microsoft’s Client business has grown over 20% on average and sales of Windows Vista have surpassed 100 million licenses.

www.microsoft.com/msft/earnings/FY08/earn_rel_q2_08.mspx

It is quite funny to see people claim that Microsoft is dying, when they are making money hand over fist. It is also funny to watch people talk about how evil they are. You have a choice you can either buy Microsoft products or not. How is that evil?
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

Paula Wirth    says:

flickr is canadian. Maybe it should have stayed that way?
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

Rippie: Contra Censura!    says:

unlike the other companies the OP mentions, who are all invasive, nasty competitive companies, MS have always had "buy-vivisect-scoop out good stuff-let limp body die" approach to competition. rather than create, they predate, buying other companies to rape them for their ideas, patents, etc, and then let them just die.

now, with Newscorp trying to play the game, the outcome either way is just too horrifying to imagine. there would be little point in having BOTH MySpace and flickr for murdoch's mob. since both brands are so potent and reasonably well regarded, i merger is more likely... and that sounds terrible.

google may want to buy, but there's no doubt that the ftc would step in to block it on the basis of being a monopoly.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

Rippie: Contra Censura!    says:

flickr is in california. they were in canadia.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

ososment    says:

Damn I thought Flickr was British... right that's it, I'm launching a hostile take over


CaLL iN tHe MariNeS!
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

William Gates says:

You will have to get past my Samorian Guard first boyo.

Your endeavours are doomed from the start.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

fromnorco says:

Hey I hate to be the last kid on the block, but I am new to flickr. "having a blast"
** NOTE ** I have had a Yahoo account since Yahoo first arrived on the scene. I have thousnads of Yahoo emails & would hate to loose them..... I don't like Hotmail..

Now for the bad..... partly my fault for not paying attention....
I lost a ton of pictures that I had on Yahoo photo's. Yes Your right I was not paying attention when Flickr came onboard. I still lost that I would have loved to put on Flickr...... At least this time I will be ahead of the curve... I don't have that many pictures on Flicker Yet.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

pyota    says:

i think the google blog is disingenuous. they write like they represent the open source movement and the publics best interest. if you fall for that stuff, you're welcome to, but the real reason for their anguish is probably that microsoft made a bid before they did, thereby infringing on google's dreams of a complete internet monopoly!
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

quikboy says:

Google and Yahoo! aren't so hot either, are they?

Google : Privacy issues, stealing copyrighted content from publishers for Google Books, posting up unsolicited Belgian news, complaining to the DOJ about Vista's Desktop Search not offering Google search, being adware installed along with Firefox and Adobe stuff, numerous spam links in adSense, etc.

Yahoo! : Putting Chinese citizens in jail by government censorship, paid website ranking fixing, filtered image search not filtering bad stuff, shark-finning controversy, lackluster search, etc.

So what makes any other company any worse?
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

Mister Phill    says:

I love unsolicited Belgian news.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

.m for matthijs    says:

*sigh*

Yahoo, MS, Google, all the same ..

when Yahoo got their hands on Flickr it was bad already .. or maybe just so we thought .. it changed from a cozy place to a huge place that needed cozy sub-places (groups) .. oh sure, there is more porn crap and partysnaps but you still know to find the better photo's anyway ..

all these theories about what MS would do to Flickr are just could-happen scenarios .. well, what 'could-happen' as well, if MS buys Flickr, is that (unlike I predicted myself when Yahoo took over), nothing much really changes ..
Originally posted 52 months ago. (permalink)
.m for matthijs edited this topic 52 months ago.

chrstphre    says:

Just to be fair...
Maybe the semi-pro-M$ players here could assail our concerns by siting an example or two of companies, services or products that M$ has stolen or bought out and =Not= ruined.

???
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

William Gates says:

The Planet Earth?
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

William Gates says:

oh... no wait a minute...
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

Catman75    says:

In general every big public company is evil in a sense. Because it is driven bij greed. The greed of it's shareholders.

Sometimes a big company is evil but "ok-ish" because there are people in charge who *care* about their customers, their products etc and are willing to step up to their shareholders.

Microsoft is even more different. Microsoft is the most boring company in the world. It is the temple of mediocracy. Everything is grey. Dull. Mediocre. Marginal. The only exception being there salesfigures.

The nice thing about Google and Apple is that they *innovate*. They are not grey and dull. They're sexy. Yahoo! was sexy in 1997. Not anymore. Became dull as well. Of course Apple and Yahoo! have evil sides as well. I hate Apple's DRM stuff and I hate their iPhone deal which makes me have to perform endless tricks to USE it without AT&T... But it is still Apple which *cares* about making sexy products (and make money of course).

So what's the difference? Microsoft is pure evil, but also pure boredom. Greyer than grey. More boring than utterly boring. And as a result: bad architecture, very bad quality and high prices.

Flickr is just way too sexy for Microsoft. They will ruin it.

The day MS buys Flickr I will definately close my account. And I didn't feel that way when it was bought by Yahoo although I didn't like it either.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

The Infamous Trench says:

chrstphr: I've been asking for those examples since these conversations began... and you can see the multitude of examples that have been presented. Right. There are no examples. It's simply "hopeful speculation" that gives the pro-MS people any kind of validity. And it *is* a valid point - MS *could* leave things as they are, they *could* actually improve upon Flickr, and they *could* give the internets a makeover of glorious proportions - but based on their record, I don't see what people are basing this faith on.

HISTORY - it's a good thing.

Also, any success MS makes of Yahoo will be determined by the communities, and userbases, that are *willing* to make MS a success.

By *willing* I don't mean those chanting "praise MS" - I mean those that are willing to "stick it out and see how things go".

These are the people that don't understand the difference between Yahoo taking over a company and MICROSOFT taking over a company.

It's like worrying about where "all" of the "undecided votes" are going to go in the U.S. Presidential race - if you're still undecided at this point - whether it's casting a vote for the left, the right, or not casting one at all - if you're still undecided at this point then you're an idiot that hasn't been paying attention to the world around you.

I say we should offer Bush a little of this MS faith that's spreading like wildfire... maybe give him a third term - why not? He *could* do a GREAT job this time around.

MS-Faith FTW.

Idiots.
Originally posted 52 months ago. (permalink)
The Infamous Trench edited this topic 52 months ago.

TrEjAcK    says:

All this cupcake talk made me hungry.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

The Infamous Trench says:

There's a Gandhi quote about surrender, hunger, and dead cupcakes... I just can't make up my mind which search engine to use to find it.

:\
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

Coen Remmelts [deleted] says:

I'm afraid that,when Microsoft buys Yahoo, flickr will become mac-unfriendly...
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

ososment    says:

Can anyone sum up this thread in a bite size chunk? It bored the shit out of me within three words...
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

slowburn♪    says:

@ososment don't worry, this is the »we're all serious/utata« thread...
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

The Infamous Trench says:

Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

jiffyslot says:

The issue that concerns us is Microsoft's history of breaking anti-trust laws.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

clvrmnky says:

@Trench:

Er, what?

Who cares what a company is called. Does Yahoo make waterparks and let you jump out of airplanes? Well, the name certainly suggests this is so. (If not, why the ASPLODING EXCLAMATION POINT and commercials featuring WACKY PEOPLE doing CRAZY THINGS set to CRAZY BANJO MUSIC, then?) Microsoft has been around longer than most of the people posting in this discussion, and they (like many other companies of this vintage) have changed their primary focus several times.

Those of us old enough to remember refer to these sorts of businesses now as "tech companies". You know, because all the "internet" companies went belly-up just a few years ago. And now we are in the middle of yet another bubble held up by "web 2.0" companies all paying each-other to stay afloat.

Yes, MSFT has a large business selling shrink-wrapped apps, but this is only part of their biz. If one takes the time to look at their sales break-downs, the business and server software license renewals are where they make a lot of their money.

What I have on my desktop right now and the servers I talk to in order to send you this missive both probably came on a few DVDs by courier once years ago. MSDN is all by subscription now, no DVDs unless you pay dearly for them. I haven't seen a boxed Microsoft product in several years, and I work for a software company that runs on Windows sold to companies that run it on Windows. Only end-users see the boxes anymore, and that market is saturated to the point of 0 growth.

Recently (as in, in recent internet memory), they acquired HotMail and a variety of other internet concerns the same time Yahoo did. The only difference is that they didn't start out that way, with the internet as their business (since it, you know, didn't really exist in any form that they could profit on). Assuming this makes any sort of real difference to the discussion at hand is an error in judgement. Microsoft has been around since before the internet mattered, and they have enough clout and money to last to the next shift in the market.

Whether or not one feels that they like the company is one thing, but emotional responses to the name, or to the CEO or other execs is a odd, but expected. Much like how the responses to Yahoo only a few short years ago taking over a perfectly fine little startup was not all roses, wine and condoms. Many people were all, like, "WTF!? ZOMG! Yahoo is teh suck. They fail the internets!" Check your history.

So, if the only concern (in terms of the entity who owns Flickr) is that somehow Microsoft is "not an internet company" I have to respectfully disagree on all counts. The most obvious logical error assuming so is that most people forget how freaking huge MSFT is. If the argument is that MSFT is not /just/ an internet company, then fair enough.

But does this matter? Is Yahoo /just/ an internet company? Clearly they were trying to extend beyond that with media acquisitions, publishing deals and a Google-like skunkworks project and the like. They wanted to play with the big, distributed boys, like Google, like Apple (are they /just/ a hardware company now? Really?), like Amazon (owners of at least the second largest networked computing platform in the world [question: does Amazon only hire women? The name would suggest so.]) and, yes, Microsoft.

All I'm saying is keep some perspective here, and try to see the big picture.

If Yahoo is not failing the internets, they are certainly failing the capitalisms. The fact is that everyone smells blood in the water now, and Yahoo is probably not long for the world in its current form. The only thing holding most companies back is that so little of Yahoo is a viable business.

Congratulations! We are using one of the only valuable properties Yahoo has to discuss this!

The bottom line is that Yahoo is probably going to be borken up, and the tastiest morsels sold off to the highest bidder. We all better pray that a TECH company like Microsoft grabs Flickr because if some huge but so-far quiet entity like Gettys Images snaps up Flickr, we are all, in three words, Fucked Beyond Compare.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

clvrmnky says:

@Coen:

I'm afraid that,when Microsoft buys Yahoo, flickr will become mac-unfriendly...

This is definitely a valid concern. Microsoft loves to buy up stuff and kill the Mac support. Not quickly. They just let it wither.

Since they would also own the API, most Mac users might be pinched out.

However, there is no denying that Mac users get used to this sort of thing no matter who they are dealing with. The Mac is always an exceptional case, even in areas where they have a large mindshare (i.e., development, web hackery and photography). Any company that snaps up Flickr could just as easily make life hard for Mac users.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

ososment    says:

slowburn♪ wrote

@ososment don't worry, this is the »we're all serious/utata« thread...

clvrmnky says:

@CatMan75:

There is an article floating around that is a look at how Microsoft used to innovate, and that this was a huge part of their runaway success early in their history until somewhat recently.

Sorry, I don't have the linky to provide, but it wasn't just a lame blog post like I'd make, but an actual, for-real article with research and everything.

One of my contentions is that Apple, know so much for its innovative approaches (leading them to make some very non-linear business decisions that still confuse pundits to this day) is approaching a sort of innovation zenith. I'm afraid there are few companies that can actually compete (in terms of innovation) with Apple, and as a result Apple is starting to stagnate and take its mindshare, leadership role for granted. Competition is good!

But all I have to back up that contention are some ideas that haven't even made their way to a lame blog entry (yet).
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

hunky    says:

CRAZY BANJO MUSIC

-Marlith- says:

I don't want the merger because I fear that it might become something like Vista. If it were some other company, like Apple, that will be great. But Microsoft...
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

where's charlie? [deleted] says:

It is not a merger. It is war. Well a buyout at least.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

Valentin David    says:

You are not a smart-ass. But let see. It is simple. Yahoo! does web services, Microsoft does software. So now, you have the difference. Will my software still be able to upload my pictures? Will my web browser still able to go on Flickr? I am not really sure.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

clvrmnky says:

@Valentin:

Q: Will my software still be able to upload my pictures?
A: Yes. Wait, you use a /web/ uploader? How quaint.

Folks, all the web is, is a computing platform. One of the most valuable Yahoo products is the Flickr API.

So, this is not as simple as you might think at first blush.

This assertion that all the companies we have been talking about do or do not do "web services" is confusing. I don't think I'm privy to any sort of inside information, but the last time I looked, every major tech company mentioned in this thread does "web services."

Microsoft has always been late and slow to these games, but they always find their niche, and drive their part of the market for their customers. But pretending that Microsoft /only/ does shrink-wrap software like Office is not only wrong, it's way wrong. Their SEC filings tell a completely different story.

What is interesting is that all the companies we've name-dropped so far are /all/ jostling for position in the web computing space. Some also do other stuff, like sell computers or books or software. But make no mistake: they know there is only so much room at the top of the pyramid, and they are willing to play dirty to get there.

Keep your eye on Amazon. They are the dark horse in this race.

Funny story: daringfireball.net/2008/02/yahoo_translation?

Short version, before I cut out of this thread for good: As suggested above, everyone knows that Microsoft will fuck up Yahoo but good -- like Yahoo fucked up Flickr. I'm just not convinced that any other company would fuck it up less.
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)

clvrmnky says:

@Hunky:

Don't have to convince me. I love the banjo, and can still scratch out some tunes on the 5-string, Scrugg's style. (Name-drop warning! Listen to the Be Good Tanyas.)

I was referring to the Yahoo TV commercials from a few years back, which included "crazy banjo music" and someone going (you guessed it) "yahoo!"
Posted 52 months ago. (permalink)