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If C-41 negatives are properly stored, shouldn't they be acceptably archival? I have some XP1 negatives that have been dark stored in archival pages for 20 years and they still look fine to me.
And I just watched a DVD of "The Invaders" that featured crisp, vibrant color cinematography. This wasn't a Technicolor IB process, just Eastmancolor negative -- which I gather is similar to C-41. It was shot in the mid-1960s and regardless of whether they scanned the original negs or pristine prints, it looks great.
What's the oldest C-41 negative folks here have that's still acceptable?
Posted 6 months ago.
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Technicolor is a different process.
Here is a good link to the Image Permanence Institute at RIT that has great info on archival issues...
www.imagepermanenceinstitute.org/shtml_sub/dl_prescalc.asp
there is even at this link a download at the bottom for Windows Platform that shows how to calculate your archival storage conditions.
I've always considered a few factors with regards to all negatives:
1. Cold is a must
2. Low humidity is a must
3. Dark Storage is a must
4. Archival storage sleeves are a must
Meet these 4 and in most cases your negs will last (c41 process) 50-75 years at best.
Cheers-
Stephen
Posted 6 months ago.
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Thanks for the link.
Isn't the IB Technicolor essentially the same as Kodachrome? More of a lithographic process?
Posted 6 months ago.
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chi_cowboy, there's a good wikipedia page on the history of technicolor
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technicolor.
You're right-- Apparently even after colour negative film took over, up until the mid 70's, prints were still made using a dye transfer process which lasts essentially for ever.
Posted 6 months ago.
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History of color films from wiki...
1861: The first known permanent color photograph is taken by James Clerk Maxwell
1877: Louis Ducos du Hauron experiments with subtractive color (see below)
1891: Lippmann process
1896: Joly color screen process
1907 (patented 1904): Autochrome
1908: Dufaycolor (color transparencies)
1908: Finlay Colour process (additive process using an RGB filter)
1909–1915: Prokudin-Gorskii's color documentary photography in Russia
1912: Paget process
1920 (patented 1905): Tri-Color carbon prints (by Louis Ducos du Hauron since 1862 and Charles Cros since 1867), it lasts to 1960 by Autotype
1935: Kodachrome (16mm motion picture film)
1936: Kodachrome (35mm still film)
1936: Agfacolor (transparency film)
1940: Ektachrome (slide film)
1942: Kodacolor (color negative process for still photography and later motion pictures)
1946: Dye transfer prints (imbibition process)
1960s: Cibachrome, now officially known as Ilfochrome.
1965: Polacolor by Polaroid
Kodachrome and Technicolor and Dye Transfer are very different from C41 in all aspects esp stability.
I had the luck many years ago to make Dye Transfer prints at RIT for one year... difficult but cool process. I have always loved the Dye Transfer prints done by Eliot Porter... you have to see them in person as in a book they fall way short.
Cheers-
Stephen
Also as a side note look at Fresson proces... now here is a very cool in house only process.... I seen a few and they are fantastic...
LINK:
www.atelier-fresson.com/history.htm
Eliot Porter Link:
www.cartermuseum.org/collections/porter/
Posted 6 months ago.
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Very cool.
I don't know anything about it besides what's on the website but apparantly there is a shop in Seattle does colour carbon printing.
www.colorcarbonprint.com/
I've also been really impressed by what people are doing with c-m-y gum bichromate printing. I'm itching to try it.
Posted 6 months ago.
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Mr. Schaub;
I am not sure where you got your information about the archival life of C41 film, but it is far from correct.
C41 is widely known not to be archival. It is not accepted for permanence just about everywhere;
www.nps.gov/history/nr/policyexpansion.htm
You should really stop advertising this fact.
Jack
Posted 6 months ago.
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Er jack .... page not found ....
If you want to criticise someone's facts at least give us a *real* valid page to look at eh? :-)
Posted 6 months ago.
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Hey Jack... I clearly stated that according to most data C41 when properly stored for long term storage will last "50-75 years". That is very accurate, but the key words are properly stored. The link I provided to the Image Permanence Institute at RIT is in my opinion the best source for true archival information regarding films and proper storage techniques.
In the end the archival quality of a film is in most cases compromised by poor storage conditions and in these cases true BW films or Kodachrome are more archival but again proper storage conditions really make the difference.
Cheers-
Stephen
Posted 6 months ago.
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OK, I just read the link you provided... crap, total crap.
First off, the variability of ink on paper in most cases is more of an issue then the industry wants to admit (not all coatings are created equal when used with different ink sets) and have you ever seen the light level they indicate is "normal" viewing light for making these tests... it is dam dark in my opinion and in most cases does not even figure for full spectrum light or temp/ humidity changes which will really change archival standards. Second... have they every heard of Fuji Crystal Archive Paper, tested to over 75-100 years.... have they ever head of cold storage for C41 films... I guess not as this info on this site is not accurate and is out of date.
In the end another issue is the def of what is archival... most tests try to set 100 years as the bench mark but in my opinion that is not possible with fact unless your prints/ negs are never ever going to leave your "perfect" storage facility. In our ever changing world who can ever say just how long something will really last.... there is just too much variability involved.
Cheers-
Stephen
PS- the CDR they mention are not archival unless they are GOLD and even then do you really think someone is going to know how to play a CDR in 75 years!
Originally posted 6 months ago.
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Figital Revolution edited this topic 6 months ago.
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OK, link now working so I gave it a read too.....
I think Stephen pretty much summed it all up, what a pile of steaming turd that article was. Not much to add though apart from also banging on about the total inaccuracy re: CDR being an archival format. I have so-called *quality* media that I've burned in optimal conditions on the finest Plextor & Pioneer CDRW/DVDRW drives that after only a couple of years are now unreadable and this is a highly common situation too. As Stephen rightly mentioned Kodak Gold is about the only totally reliable disc to even use for storage/archival purposes though I have had no problems with any Verbatim discs with the renowned Taiyo-Yuden dye either.
Posted 6 months ago.
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Henry Wilhelm has his entire book on colour film and print permanence available on his website-- unfortunately it's getting pretty old (1992) so It doesn't cover any of the currently available c41 films but useful none the less. He has a lot of papers on newer stuff but it's not always easy to find what you are looking for. There's also a lot of info about storing film-- apparently the bottom line if you're really serious you need a dedicated frost less film fridge.
www.wilhelm-research.com/book_toc.html
Originally posted 5 months ago.
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Justin Berger edited this topic 5 months ago.
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