Equirectangular / Discuss

Seb Przd    says:

This is very very annoying - it's more than that: it's stealing and should be stopped. The link back to flickr is very small and not intuitive, and it does not display the name of the photographer.

The server seems to be located in Bulgaria.
Originally posted 35 months ago. (permalink)
Seb Przd edited this topic 35 months ago.

Patrick Hoff [deleted] says:

She doesn't use any of mine, but it seems you can email her at
madwitch@data.bg
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Seb Przd    says:

I contacted the email address madwitch@data.bg, and here is the reply I got from her:

Hello,

We are currently developing panorama hosting service which will offer a lot of features. It is NOT in production yet. And we do NOT mean to steal other people's hard work.

We have collected some real content (and included reference to origin) to test various aspects of the system and obviously you have seen referral links to your panoramas.

If you want your panoramas deleted, please send us the links so there's no misunderstanding.

However, if you think our service will be useful to you, we invite you to join it when it's production ready and of course we'll change the ownership of your panoramas to your account so you can manage them as you want. Some of the features are: geomapping of everything, various panorama formats (from simple images to partial panoramas to full spherical), virtual tours, intuitive interface for organizing and tuning content as you want, embedding and more.

Regards,

Sofia

simon sherwin    says:

It's not good enough for them to say that they will only remove pictures if their owners identify them. Their actions are unlawful and they should immediately remove all the pictures they are effectively stealing.

Suggestion: That one of the admins or the moderator of this group writes on behalf of this group reminding them that any infringement of copyright is unlawful and could result in legal action. Such a mass infringement of copyright will certainly alienate them from a productive part of the panorama community.

PS Their domain name is www.pan0.net/
Originally posted 35 months ago. (permalink)
simon sherwin edited this topic 35 months ago.

Mantis of Destiny    says:

This situation is basically the same as what the World Wide Panorama group went through with a company in Germany that was using uncredited WWP images to demonstrate an interactive projection system they were developing. I think that situation got adversarial really quickly when a subset of the WWP group hired a lawyer and went after them.

For me personally an adequate solution in this case would be that they ask permission to use my images to test/demonstrate their system. I would normally grant permission on the conditions that they credit me as the photographer and I get to choose or approve the images they use. If they want to use my images to demonstrate their new hosting service that's kind of flattering. The problem is that they are presenting my work and others and crediting it to username piitu. Not cool, but easily fixed.

Anyway, we are not heavy hitters here -- I wonder if Flickr is the party more likely to swing a big legal bat. If this issue gets any worse I intend to look more carefully at what Flickr can do to help us.

BTW, I kind of like their player at the pan0.net site. That little rocking move it makes when you sweep sideways is interesting -- kind of mimicking a novice steadicam operator.
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

simon sherwin    says:

I have written to the website telling them that their actions are unlawful and that they should remove ALL the pictures they have stolen from this group.

I hope others will do the same.
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Aldo    says:

My equirectangulars are shared with a creative commons non-commercial attribution license. So in principle the panoramas could be reproduced. Unfortunately there is no attribution in the panorama pages (other than pano by piitu, who is not me), and the download contains no attribution either...

I'll be sending a friendly email, and I suggest we all stay friendly. It looks like pan0.net are betatesting a new version of their website, and they (foolishly) thought it was apt to use our content to test their new system.
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Seb Przd    says:

I agree with aldo to stay friendly. Other photographers might also wish to contact them as well.

Here is the list of persons concerned - I did this quickly by looking at the different panoramas, so I may have missed some.

aldo 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=176
alexispz 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=40
cabanaboy_mb pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=303
dmswart 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=46
drachen 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=197
erik-nl 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=2
flashlamp 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=80
fpsurgeon 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=121
gawthrop 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=54
geek7 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=115
heiwa4126 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=23
humbleweed pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=304
king-edward 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=78
konderminator 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=59
manowatt 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=179
mantisofdestiny 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=91
manyone 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=180
pano_philou 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=62
patchouly 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=111
pepeketua 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=113
robbieconaway 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=192
samuraivirtualtours 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=169
sbprzd 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=28
tomlechner 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=29
tommyauphoto 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=191
vdesnoux 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=190
wmliu 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=99
zdeto 89.190.194.24/upano.php?pano_id=187
Originally posted 35 months ago. (permalink)
Seb Przd edited this topic 35 months ago.

fpsurgeon says:

I think either a takedown notice or a request for proper attribution (i.e., Pano by fpsurgeon, not piitu) would be reasonable with my permission. The beta-testing argument is no argument at all.

And thanks, Seb, for pointing out that they were using mine (and not even my best one, IMHO)! You've saved my bacon on more than one occasion with things like this. As they say in golf, you da man!

On a related note, I wish a service like www.tineye.com had a little more content/worked better or that there were some awesome reverse image search service out there. Anyone know of any?
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Mantis of Destiny    says:

I do like the features of their service, but I don't like section 5.3 of their Terms of Use, which appears to grant them perpetual, irrevocable, infinitely assignable use of any image uploaded to the site. I have requested that they remove all of my images and provided them a list of the images to be removed, per their request.

In an email Madwitch noted (apparently without ironic intent) that they are working on a new feature that will allow "panorama protection against stealing."
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

fpsurgeon says:

I got the same form letter from Sofia. Nice to know that thieves use form letters. Efficient.

And yes, I think the irony of protection against stealing is lost on the Bulgarian thief.
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

wmliu    says:

thanks Seb for compiling that list! i wouldn't have known by myself. so, what's the consensus? we should all write to them and tell them how wrong they are?
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Seb Przd    says:

As you wish, really. Some are happy with the interface and have requested a beta account. Others have requested that their panoramas be deleted.
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Mantis of Destiny    says:

I had an interesting (unrequested) live chat with the "webmaster" at pan0.net. As I was compiling a list of the URLs of my panoramas being displayed without permission and with incorrect attribution a little chat window opened in my browser for the following delightful conversation:

[02:26]
webmaster: strange. what makes you think i will delete your panoramas after all the shit you've done over flickr? 
[02:27]
Guest 950: what shit is that?
[02:28]
webmaster: read the comments
[02:27]
webmaster:http://www.flickr.com/photos/fattybigboy/3095208022/
[02:28]
webmaster: the last one is yours
[02:29]
webmaster: thanks for the free advertisement you made
[02:29]
Guest 950: I can delete that. I was a little annoyed to find so many of my panos taken. So, you delete my panos, I delete that comment, no problem.
[02:30]
webmaster: forget what Sofi wrote. you won't have your panos removed. cry me a river now
[02:30]
Guest 950: And I think I've been clear that I actually like your service.
[02:30]
webmaster: you won't ever use it
[02:30]
webmaster: unless you change your isp, your email and your related sites
[02:31]
webmaster: no need to tell you your ip has been logged and so on
[02:32]
webmaster: you still don't get it, don't you?
[02:32]
Guest 950: not like I've been hiding. Why so angry?
[02:32]
webmaster: i just hate bitching
[02:32]
webmaster: it was all experimental. as you may see we already have some quite some users from the pan0.net v1
[02:32]
webmaster: and that's what you did
[02:33]
webmaster: of course i have to admit you made quite some advertisements there
[02:33]
webmaster: i can see the referrer urls, you know that right?
[02:34]
Guest 950: Don't know pano net v1. If you pick up new users fine by me.
[02:35]
Guest 950: So why not remove my panoramas?
[02:35]
webmaster: i've just been told you don't agree over 5.3 tos
[02:35]
webmaster: also i got explained your last convo
[02:36]
webmaster: you made the impression like you are reasonable man
[02:36]
webmaster: why the sudden change?
[02:36]
webmaster: is that because of tos 5.3
[02:36]
Guest 950: What's unreasonable about not liking 5.3?
[02:37]
webmaster: or you got that PoV long before you even wrote to Sofi?
[02:38]
webmaster: because seeing your posts 4 days ago on flickr makes me think it was just a trick to make us remove your panos?
[02:38]
Guest 950: No, I was in the process of signing up when I read 5.3 .
[02:38]
webmaster: did you read yahoo/flickr tos?
[02:39]
webmaster: do you want me to link them to you?
[02:39]
Guest 950: Decided I should wait and see how the service goes first, whether other users signed up, etc. Then come back and join up later if it seemed good.
[02:40]
Guest 950: That's the problem, isn't it. Everybody's TOS is annoying. MAking me rethink all online photo stuff.
[02:40]
webmaster: did you notice that once you post an image on flickr you actually share it with the whole world and by that you grant the permission to everyone to use your content
[02:40]
Guest 950: Seriously, why are you angry about this?
[02:40]
webmaster: did you saw that you have link in every image description pointing to the original location
[02:40]
webmaster: do you know i can make all your panos appear on this website without even storing them here?
[02:41]
Guest 950: I did see that, and I commented on it in the discussion on Flickr as a point in your favor
[02:41]
webmaster: why i;m angry with it?
[02:41]
Guest 950: Yes, I am aware of that - the problem is crediting the photos to user piitu
[02:42]
webmaster: how they are credited?
[02:42]
Guest 950: You appear angry at me, without discussion
[02:42]
Guest 950: They are credited panorama by piitu
[02:43]
webmaster: this is part of the web system. if you had registered it would show your name
[02:44]
Guest 950: I understand that.
[02:44]
webmaster: i can't create exceptions on a testing account within a beta website just to satisfy you. it's too much time consuming to program that especially when this is part of a lot bigger web system
[02:45]
webmaster: it's a lot simplier if you just register
[02:45]
webmaster: anyway when you see the "BETA" sign removed you can bet the piitu account won't even exist
[02:46]
Guest 950: It would have been very easy to contact me and say hey can we use some of your panos to test our site
[02:47]
Guest 950: That's the part that provoked the comment on flickr
[02:47]
webmaster: and say that to 20 more people? we just needed a test suite for different types of panos (fov,hfos,vfos) and also different coordinates. picking mostly random panos from flickr was the best choice for a test suite
[02:48]
Guest 950: What's hard about talking to 20 people?
[02:48]
webmaster: and by the way did you though about the effort to put a link below every single image just to make sure there IS a link to the author page?
[02:48]
webmaster: how did you got the link to this test website anyway?
[02:49]
Guest 950: As I said, that was a huge point in your favor, and I said so on Flickr
[02:49]
Guest 950: Just clicked on the link from my flickr stats
[02:49]
webmaster: the referrers
[02:50]
webmaster: how do you think you got them in the stats?
[02:50]
Guest 950: yes
[02:50]
webmaster: would you even have the info if we didn't put that links? 
[02:51]
webmaster: now let's see how the things might have gone in a far better way
[02:52]
Guest 950: OK - so can we say that I should have contacted you guys before the post on Flickr that you mentioned above, but you should have contacted people in advance of using the panos?
[02:53]
webmaster: all you had to do was register AND try it. see if it works even in beta mode. if you liked you you could have thought "uhm those dudes might do a change or few that fit my needs best"
[02:53]
webmaster: and get that for free
[02:54]
Guest 950: That's what I was thinking, but the fact that you had already lifted the panos from me and others without any contact made me wonder whether I should keep clear of you.
[02:54]
webmaster: see how the "parallel reality" works? 
[02:54]
webmaster: think on something
[02:55]
webmaster: what's the use to us creating a website
[02:55]
webmaster: put time, know-how and money
[02:55]
webmaster: to create a website on which we have to fill the data by ourselves
[02:55]
webmaster: the most important part on content-service websites are the users
[02:56]
webmaster: so do you think your 51 panoramas can actually make me richer or make this website works (except the beta tests we need)?
[02:56]
webmaster: without you i mean
[02:56]
webmaster: your panoramas as an objective
[02:57]
Guest 950: So why risk that future user relationship right out of the gate by taking actions that alarm potential users before the site is even done? A little advance communication goes a long ways
[02:57]
webmaster: of course it's more important that YOU become our member. not trying to ditch our pontential future users
[02:58]
webmaster: did you though we could have forseen that someone will put such an effort to put dirt on us like you did?
[02:59]
webmaster: post on almost every pano
[02:59]
webmaster: and ofc you have the links to the original ones by our effort - the link in the description
[02:59]
webmaster: now do you see why i am angry dude? 
[02:59]
webmaster: it seems you have a lot of free time
[02:59]
webmaster: that was plain stupid
[03:00]
webmaster: which makes me think you are not more than 21
[03:01]
webmaster: got any comments on that? 
[03:04]
Guest 950: I see you working yourself into a rant, but I'm not sure why.
[03:05]
webmaster: i'm just disgusted of what you did
[03:05]
webmaster: simple
[03:05]
webmaster: people behaving like you makes me sick
[03:07]
Guest 950: Let's see, i made a couple of comments on flickr after noticing my work on your site, not credited to me. I alerted other Flickr users that this was going on. The comments I made were accurate - someone was posting works under another user name on another site without notifying the original photographers in any way.

webmaster: Let's see, Sofi downloaded some photos from flickr website (note - free image SHARING service - not your OWN website) putting credits to page of every author. At some point we've become thieves and even panorama pirates (big LOL on this 1). You can't complain about our efforts on making that in a fair way
[03:17]
webmaster: Tip1: if you have read the flickr policy we are able to embed any image on flickr.com on any panorama player we want - afterall it's a sharing service. You are american and you pretty well know what SHARING means
[03:22]
Guest 950: I made a very specific complaint about my panoramas being credited to a user who is not me. Sofie offered to remove the panoramas if I did not want to sign on with an account. That is the path I was on (and it all seemed very civil before this exchange). Why not put it back on a civil footing? It's not a big deal to take down the panoramas -- or fix the attribution like I asked in my original email to you guys.
webmaster: Tip2: even if we delete your panos and you applogize on every post you did on flickr - we are not even close to even. You can't really wipe all the dirt you did on our name. Yes, you did some free advertisement and my business partner is very thankful to you about it, still i'm not. You have poluted our name and if you were in my place you won't be happy either
webmaster: Tip3: i hope this doesn't look like preaching, but asking before shitting is the good way. Even the church suggests it. Did we embed a WATERMARK on your panoramas claiming that they are ours? Do we make money from that? Do we or do we NOT give a credit to all the authors just to make sure noone is offended by our beta test site?
[03:31]
Guest 950: Well, you did strip off the exif data and the copyright info, and then you posted it with the message "panorama by piitu" printed across it and you did redistribute it directly from your site rather than as a link to Flickr.
webmaster: well i haven't
[03:32]
webmaster: as it was uploaded by the owner
[03:32]
webmaster: our system preserves the original image
[03:32]
webmaster: the thumnails and etc - yes they are
[03:33]
webmaster: Panorama by piitu is a flash label and it's not embeded in the image
[03:33]
webmaster: you can download it and see that it's clear
[03:34]
webmaster: it is possible that some exif data is wiped from one of the early images. that was on earlier stage
[03:35]
webmaster: ofc if you apply some text effects or visual effects - those will affect the exif data for now
[03:35]
webmaster: we will*
[03:35]
webmaster: in few days will will distribute the original exif over the thumbnails
[03:36]
webmaster: let me ask you something, may i?
[03:36]
Guest 950: .Ask away
webmaster: was it hard to ask instead of putting some much effort doing it the wrong way?
[03:41]
webmaster: see how it works?
[03:41]
webmaster: by the way you just gave us the idea of actually public the exif data below the description
[03:44]
Guest 950: Hard to ask what?
webmaster: ask why you can't control your panos on our pano service
[03:48]
Guest 950: sofia explained that quite nicely. The options she gave were to sign up or identify the panoramas to be removed. That's what I was doing when this chat began.
[03:49]
Guest 950: So, are you going to remove my panoramas?
webmaster: depends on how many people will write us claiming that we are thieves
Guest 950: Please remove my panoramas from the site. And like I said, I would be happy to delete the Flickr comment you mentioned above when you remove my panoramas from your site. You have made it clear that you will not let me sign up whether I want to or not. Under those conditions I don't really see why you would want to keep my panoramas on your site, hopefully you will see it that way too soon. It's been an interesting chat.
webmaster: because we are going to use them as a test case until we finish the site and promote it as production
[04:30]
webmaster: til then i don't really see a point of removing them keeping in mind the tons of information we have exchanged already
[04:32]
webmaster: so back to your question - at the end they will all be removed. until then you can consider this as a free advertising to your photography skills and so on
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Aldo    says:

What the...

Well, I still suggest we ask this Sofi friendly to remove the panoramas. It's always best to stay friendly. I just wish someone would tell that to this "webmaster" guy. In the mean time I am reading up on Creative Commons license breaches...
wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ#What_happens_if_someone_misu...
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Seb Przd    says:

?????

This is crazy. They've lost all the credibility they had so far with me.

I wonder if this should go to the PanotoolsNG list - I think I've seen pan0.net mentioned.
Originally posted 35 months ago. (permalink)
Seb Przd edited this topic 35 months ago.

Mantis of Destiny    says:

I did go on to send the requested list to Sofia... 2 days ago. No response so far, panoramas are still on the beta site. I don't understand why this guy doesn't see himself sabotaging all that hard work he says he did.

I also note that yahoo/flickr TOS specifically say they do not retain any claim on the your images after you remove them from from Flickr, unlike pan0.net TOS 5.3.
Originally posted 35 months ago. (permalink)
Mantis of Destiny edited this topic 35 months ago.

hangglide says:

It would be my suggestion to post a link to this whole mess on PanotoolsNG list also. It is sad because what could have been a nice service got started on the wrong foot in the community by plainly stealing photos and then being belligerent about it.

If they don't mend their ways soon and apologize I expect they may not get much support from the rest of the pano community. It might be useful to sent Sofi a link to this discussion too so that she can contribute and defend her actions.
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Seb Przd    says:

The message is on PanotoolsNG now.
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

hangglide says:

To be clear I second Aldo's remarks about staying friendly. I would add that we should be clear and firm in pointing out that they are breaking copyright law and that puts their business in an indefensible position should they start to receive take down notices.
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

thatkeith    says:

I've just come here from reading this in the PanotoolsNG list. It is absolutely shocking, especially that chat transcript. The following is purely my own personal opinion and thoughts, but it may help:

What to do?

Anyone who hasn't yet signed up for a pan0.net beta account, DON'T.
With the license agreement clause 5.3 as it stands, signing up could make it more complex to demand that they don't use your work. (Ultimately this couldn't hold up in a court of law because the images were already taken without permission, but why complicate matters?)
Instead, if you have images that appear there, send a formally-written and firm 'request' (demand, really) that your specific named and identified images are taken down, deleted from their archives, and will not be shown again.

Anyone who HAS signed up for a beta account already should use it to remove all their images and then close it. (Perhaps first upload spoiler image content for each image, replacing the original data? The effectiveness of that depends how diligent they are about backups and archives. That could also be the first salvo in a war, of course.)
Then send a formally-written and firm request that all you (specific named and identified images) are deleted from their archives and will not be shown again, regardless of clause 5.3 in the license 'agreement'.

Why get angry, why bother?

It isn't a matter of whether or not you think their pano hosting idea is good, or of it being called 'beta', or that they needed content for the development of their idea. The issue of referral links coming from their site is irrelevant and undermines the claim about not being in production, too.

This is purely a black and white matter of copyright - something which is not automatically relinquished when you post to Flickr. Without prior permission, Pan0.net is simply NOT legally allowed to use copyrighted content, no matter where it appears online.

This is also a matter of morals, courtesy and common sense - none of which was apparent in the words of "webmaster". (Words which will be VERY handy if things get to court, BTW!) Sofia didn't seem to be antagonistic, but there was no apparent recognition of the wrong that was done either.

Finally, for the sake of the panorama community: Pan0.net - don't do it.

Keith
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

lightzoneindia says:

I am confused over the great confusion, & before I say anything I must say that I am not defending webmaster of pan0.net

1. they have not taken anybody's image, the images are hot linked which flickr allows bcoz the whole purpose of flickr is to share images.

2. The images are not hosted on their server instead the url of the image is referred in the code which is not illegal. Its like I refer to a quote from a book in a public meeting & the author come to me saying "you are not authorized to quote me without my consent" ...................what consent????? the book is published in public domain & the law allows you to refer/quote/research/dispute/access & many more things to do.

Don't we refer many images here on flickr?

3. Have anyone of you seen your images indexed by google? if yes are you going to ask google to remove it from its database? isn't google indexing your images without any explicit permission?

4. Grow up to the changing face of the web 2.0 "else" don't publish images on public image sharing sites.

"This is purely a black and white matter of copyright - something which is not automatically relinquished when you post to Flickr. Without prior permission, Pan0.net is simply NOT legally allowed to use copyrighted content, no matter where it appears online."

Have you ever been to a court for any copyright issues???

When you post to flickr you surely retain the right but you agreed to showcase the images on the "ENTIRE WEB" not just flickr.

However I agree that the webmaster could have been more courteous towards this matter but he chose his words differently.
Originally posted 35 months ago. (permalink)
lightzoneindia edited this topic 35 months ago.

zdeto    says:

Ok this sucks.
Dear Madwitch or piitu or whatever name there is.
I don't remember you asking me if you can use my panos for testing purposes or anything else. And what pisses me off, is that it says "panorama by piitu" on them, and that is a lie.

So, now, I am asking you nicely, and asking you just one time. Please remove from your website all the panos that are mine. You don't wanna piss me off more than this. If you don't know anything about your neighbors from the north, do some research.

Let me help you identify what's mine:
pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=174
pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=173
pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=172
pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=187
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Aldo    says:

@lightzoneindia:

The biggest problem is that the images are shown as attributed to piitu. It litterally says "panorama by piitu" on all of the pages, which is plain not true. A link back to the originating page on flickr does not compensate that.

Additionally the website has a very "convenient" download link for all panoramic images. This download link - again - does not add any attribution to me, but instead has a reference to piitu in the name.

> 1. they have not taken anybody's image, the images are
> hot linked which flickr allows bcoz the whole purpose of
> flickr is to share images.

I am not sure if that is actually true. The panoramas are served from the pan0.net domain, eg:
pan0.net/f.php?id=205&type=upanos. But this is besides the point.
Originally posted 35 months ago. (permalink)
Aldo (a group admin) edited this topic 35 months ago.

Aldo    says:

Since a couple of days the "beta" interface of pan0.net is live on the main domain instead of the "non public" 89.90.194.24 domain. The panoramas we're talking about in this thread are still online, contrary to what has been said by "webmaster".

The text "panorama by piitu" was changed to "added by piitu", but there is still no proper attribution.

In email exchanges, pan0.net (in the person of Sofia/madwitch) claim they are following the "Flickr license", though in fact they are not. They must have used the Flickr API to get at the additional information of the photos/panoramas, so they must abide by the user license for this API:
www.flickr.com/services/api/tos/
These terms of service clearly state:

1. Licensed Uses and Restrictions.
(...)
a. You shall:
(...)
ii: Comply with any requirements or restrictions imposed on usage of the photos by their respective owners. Remember, Flickr doesn't own the images - Flickr users do.
(...)
iv: Remove from your application within 24 hours any Flickr user's photos or other information that the owner of the photo asks you to remove.


Though I have given them the opportunity to add proper attribution to my work, under section 1.a.iv, I have now given them 24 hours to remove my images from their site. If they don't do so within 24 hours I will file a complaint with Flickr which will cause them to loose their access to the Flickr API.

If they keep telling you they do not break the Flickr rules, feel free to point them at the Flickr API terms of service, though always in a friendly tone of voice...
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Seb Przd    says:

Unfortunately, I do not think that losing the access to the API will cause them much problems now that they have imported (some of) our images. Of course, it solves future "borrowing" of images.
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Aldo    says:

Sofia is now claiming that she has not used the Flickr API, which is contrary to what I thought "webmaster" implied in his chat with Mantis of Destiny. So unfortunately this "angle" is a dead end.

Since pan0.net is still offering a direct download of my work without any form of attribution to me, and since I am of the opinion that a link to the flickr pahe does not constitute proper attribution, I am still asking Sofia to remove the work (or add proper attribution), but she's actively refusing to do so.
Originally posted 35 months ago. (permalink)
Aldo (a group admin) edited this topic 35 months ago.

Seb Przd    says:

This is getting worser and worser.

BTW, I added two more users who have had their work "lifted".

See also the discussion that has started on panoguide.
Originally posted 35 months ago. (permalink)
Seb Przd edited this topic 35 months ago.

HamburgerJung    says:

They used one of my panoramas too now.
If they link to the image on flickr - can I replace the image to change the url? Or set it private?
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

cabanaboy_mb says:

It is a pretty good quality viewer....
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Seb Przd    says:

HamburgerJung they have used more than one of yours I think (Berlin). I don't think that changing the URL (which you can get by rotating the picture) would do anything, as they have probably downloaded the source image.

cabanaboy_mb I find there are many "wiggly" lines - they have not set up the quality high enough, at least on my computer the "Auto" setting is not good enough. I much prefer viewat.org. Also, be careful with the terms and conditions of pan0.net (in particular article 5.3).
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Aldo    says:

> If they link to the image on flickr - can I replace the image to change the url?

As far as I can see, they don't. "webmaster" indicated that they *could* do that, but currently the panoramas are served from pan0.net. They also suggest this with the "hosted by pan0.net" overlay.

Has anyone gotten an answer from the siteowner? I've had email contact with piitu/Sofia/madwitch, but Atanas Minev (who registered the domain and who developed at least the previous version of the site) is not answering my emails.
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Aldo    says:

Interestingly, the terms of use for the site, which you have to agree to before uploading content to the site, specifically tells prospective users of the site that they have to abide to "the Bulgarian legislation, EU legislation, and all applicable local, national, and international laws and regulations." (which includes copyright law) and that they must "own or have the necessary licenses, rights, consents, and permissions to use and authorize Pan0.net to use all patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other proprietary rights in and to any and all User Submissions"

pan0.net/register.php
(NOTE: I would advise you NOT to agree to these terms, or you may be indemnifying pan0.net against your own claims)

So at the very least, piitu/Sofia/madwitch is breaking the pan0.net terms of use. "7.1. Pan0.net has the right without any notice to terminate User's account and/or block User's access to its Website upon any implications that these Terms of Use policy and/or any laws are being violated by the User."

Unfortunately the site does not contain contact information, so section 8 of the Terms of Use which deals with how to act on copyright infringements is only of limited use.
Originally posted 35 months ago. (permalink)
Aldo (a group admin) edited this topic 35 months ago.

Sam Rohn - 360° Photography    says:

what about contacting their hosting provider ?

they must have a TOS which prohibits hosting pirated content and the like, and will prob take it more seriously than the pan0 folks

from the panoguide thread - www.panoguide.com/forums/qna/6507/

NameCheap.com
Contact: support@NameCheap.com
www.namecheap.com/
NameCheap, Inc
+1.6613102107
Fax: +1.6613102107
11400 W. Olympic Blvd. Suite 200
Los Angeles, CA 90064 US
Originally posted 35 months ago. (permalink)
Sam Rohn - 360° Photography edited this topic 35 months ago.

Sam Rohn - 360° Photography    says:

www.namecheap.com/legal/webhosting/show.asp?page=aup

2. User Obligations. You represent and warrant to NameCheap that: Your content does not and shall not contain any content, materials, data, work, trade or service mark, trade name, link, advertising or services that actually or potentially violate any applicable law or regulation or infringe or misappropriate any proprietary, intellectual property, contract or tort right of any person and that You own Your account content and all proprietary or intellectual property rights therein, or have express written authorization from the owner to copy, use and display the content on and within Your server account.

boom
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

simon sherwin    says:

There has been much attention to the wording of Pan0.net's Terms of Use 5.3. But 1.5 makes 5.3 meaningless.

1.5. Pan0.net may, in its sole discretion, modify or revise these Terms of Use and policies at any time, and you agree to be bound by such modifications or revisions. Any changes or modifications to these Terms of Use will be active "ex tunc" as of the date of the first "Website" publishing and will affect all previously uploaded content.

This clause is mind-boggling. Imagine, for example, they decided to charge for their services ...
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

matthias_taugwalder says:

Hi all, for your information: the following message was sent on behalf of the IVRPA board of directors to the pan0.net people.
....

Dear Sir or Madam,

The IVRPA (International VR Photography Association) as an
international association, represents a large number of panoramic
photographers world-wide and their interests. It has come to our
attention that an user of your site has uploaded copyright protected
content to your website pan0.net, including the work of some of our
members. We would like to point out that copyright is internationally
standardized and must be respected.

Therefore we ask you to remove all images originally marked with "©
All Rights Reserved", before Wednesday July 15th, 2009 at 12:00 noon
UTC. You don't have the right to use these images on the pan0.net
website without prior consent from the authors.

Additionally, we ask you to respect the Creative Commons Licenses by
attributing the images to the correct author immediately, on all
images that where originally marked with "Some rights reserved". Note
that only providing a link back to the originating page in itself does
not constitute attribution, unless the author or licensor specifically
agrees it does.

If you do not meet our demand, we will advise and fully support our
members in their legal actions to have their content removed from your
website.


The IVRPA board of directors,

Donald G. Bain
Carlos Chegado
Willy Kaemena
Jürgen Schrader
Aaron Spence
Matthias Taugwalder
Jan van der Woning

---
International VR Photography Association
www.ivrpa.org
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

zdeto    says:

We are wasting time discussing Pan0.net's Terms of Use. It's obvious that's full of crap. This site has started on the wrong foot.
Let's concentrate on removing our panos from it!
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Seb Przd    says:

matthias_taugwalder thanks! let's see what happens now.

zdeto warning prospective users of pan0.net might also be useful
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Aldo    says:

I have compiled a document containing links to all 168 entries by piitu on pan0.net as of juli 16th. The document contains the originating pages on Flickr, the Flickr user names, as well as the title of the license attached to the original work.

The document can be found here:
fieldofview.com/temp/pan0net_by_piitu(16jul2009).xls

39 users are affected.
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

hangglide says:

Thanks Aldo.
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Sam Rohn - 360° Photography    says:

one of my panos is listed here, www.flickr.com/photos/nylocations/331606656/ on the pan0 page - pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=104 -

but they used the wrong image, not my pano or even jerusalem at all, must be someone else's though....

thanks guys -

sam
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

matthias_taugwalder says:

Hi all

For your information please note the attached copy of IVRPA's reply to pan0.net regarding copyright infringement on pan0.net. The full correspondence including pan0.net's reply is available at ivrpa.org/node/2856 .


Matthias Taugwalder
on behalf of the IVRPA board of directors

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Matthias Taugwalder
Date: 2009/7/22
Subject: Re: Copyright infringement on pan0.net
To:


Dear Mr. and Mr.

Thanks for your in-depth reply to our message regarding “copyright
infringement on pan0.net”.


About The IVRPA

First we want to remind you with whom you are dealing. The
International VR Photography Association (IVRPA) is the established
organisation of professional VR photographers. All members of our
Board of Directors are volunteers, so we don’t get paid to write to
you. Since we are an association for professionals run by
professionals, we take copyright issues and infringements very
seriously. This is one of the benefits our members pay for.

Your bending and misinterpretation of copyright is an insult to the
panoramic community. If you look through our list of members, you will
see that we rank among our members some of the key players and
well-known panoramic photographers world-wide. We’ll leave it for you
to decide if your treatment of photographers’ rights will help you to
be taken seriously and establish a reputable website for panoramic
content.


About Copyright Principles

We will try to explain to you how copyright works. The basic copyright
principles are the same all over the world, so there is little
difference between US, EU or even Bulgarian law. But let’s have a look
at those:

- Copyright has been internationally standardized by treaties
and conventions.
- Copyright is a right, granted to you by law, to control the
copying, reproduction, distribution, derivative use, and public
display of your photographs, and to sue for unauthorized use
(infringement) of your work.
- Copyright ownership arises automatically when you create an image.
- It is recommended that all photographs carry a copyright
notice, but it is no longer required by law.
- As the copyright owner, you have to license someone to use
your image before they can legally do so.
- This means that you can’t just take the agreement of the
photographer for granted to use his/her image. You need an explicit
consent for that.


About Bulgarian Copyright

You will probably say now that this does not apply to Bulgarian
Copyright Law, but let’s take a closer look:
Bulgarian Copyright Law (Consolidation), 16/06/1993 (2002),
see www.kipo.ke.wipo.net/clea/en/text_pdf.jsp?lang=EN&id=458

- “Copyright on works of literature, art and science shall arise
for the author upon creation of the work” – Art. 2
- "The author shall be the natural person whose creative
endeavours have resulted in the creation of a literary, artistic or
scientific work." – Art. 5
- "Until otherwise is proved, the author of a work shall be
deemed to be the person whose name or other identifying mark is shown
in the customary manner on the literary, artistic or scientific work."
– Art. 6
- “A work may be made available to the public under a pseudonym
or anonymously. Until the identity of the author is disclosed, his
copyright shall be exercised by the natural or legal person, who first
has made the work available to the public with the author's consent.”
– Art. 7 (1) and (2)
- "Moral rights under items 2 and 4 of paragraph (1) of the
preceding Article shall be non-transferable. Transfer of other moral
rights may only be explicit and in writing." – Art. 16

So in fact the Bulgarian copyright is very similar. The basic
copyright principles apply in Bulgaria as in other countries.


Facts

Let’s sum up the facts:

1) You are the owners and responsible people for the pan0.net
website, which hosts panoramic content.

2) You copied “real content” into your website to test your system.
This is what you told one of the members of the flickr equirectangular
group, see www.flickr.com/groups/equirectangular/discuss/72157620918...

3) You did this without any prior information of the photographers
who own the images, nor did you have any explicit consent from them to
do so.

4) Some the images on flickr.com were released under the Creative
Commons license, but additionally to those you also grabbed
copyright-protected images. These were explicitly declared as
copyright-protected “© All rights reserved”.

5) Images under the Creative Commons license are not correctly
attributed on your website with the original flickr.com username.
Correct attribution is requested by the Creative Commons license.

6) You are not even permitted to show copyright-protected images on
pan0.net without any explicit consent from the author.

7) The original copyright owners don’t have to prove to you that they
own the copyright content. Their ownership may be assumed, since those
images have been already published on flickr.com.



Who We Represent

As you said correctly, we can only represent our members in this case.
So far two of our members are affected by this copyright infringement.
Please see below their flickr.com user names and the URLs to the their
stolen works:

aldo - CC Attribution-NonCommercial - ivrpa.org/user/1206

- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=114 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/aldo/448246554/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=175 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/aldo/220894961/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=176 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/aldo/220895611/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=61 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/aldo/3250494562/


erik-nl - All Rights Reserved - ivrpa.org/user/2942

- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=1 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/erik-nl/2623086304/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=10 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/erik-nl/2633924711/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=101 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/erik-nl/453111322/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=106 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/erik-nl/2682803470/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=11 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/erik-nl/2624528139/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=122 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/erik-nl/685929595/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=2 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/erik-nl/2781869550/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=25 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/erik-nl/2813738260/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=33 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/erik-nl/870578880/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=34 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/erik-nl/458131716/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=52 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/erik-nl/2797590478/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=6 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/erik-nl/2689595987/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=7 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/erik-nl/2634755050/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=71 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/erik-nl/686499913/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=8 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/erik-nl/2790121887/
- pan0.net/upano.php?pano_id=9 vs.
www.flickr.com/photos/erik-nl/2631400119/

You will find attached to this message, their written agreements that
IVRPA may represent them and act in their interest.



Our Demands and Actions

Despite copyright-protected content or content published under the
Creative Commons license, all of our members want their works to be
removed from your website. Therefore we request you to remove the
content (as named above) immediately.

Please note that:

1) a complete (but anonymized version) of our correspondence has
been published at ivrpa.org/node/2856 ,

2) a copy of this message will be sent to your hosting provider,
which is according to tinyurl.com/lns3ka “Paradise hosting”,

3) a copy of this message will be sent to the IVRPA members,
panorama-related mailing lists (as PanoToolsNG and WWP) and posted on
discussions forums (as panoguide.com),

4) a copy of this message will be posted at the flickr.com
Equirectangular user group,

5) Flickr.com has been informed about this abuse.

6) Furthermore, you have been and will be banned from IVRPA
membership, as long as this copyright infringement on pan0.net
persists.

If you do not meet our demands, we can assure you, that enforcing the
rights of our members in this case will be one of our key priorities
until this situation has been resolved.


The IVRPA board of directors,

Donald G. Bain
Carlos Chegado
Willy Kaemena
Jürgen Schrader
Aaron Spence
Matthias Taugwalder
Jan van der Woning

---
International VR Photography Association
www.ivrpa.org
Posted 35 months ago. (permalink)

Patrick Hoff [deleted] says:

I wonder why they didn't use any of Josh or myself..? ;-)

Seriously, I am impressed by this kind of support among all you panographers out there! Although it is not my case, if needed I will back you guys all the way.

Btw, there is some more contact stuff available on the site:
Contact form: pan0.net/contact.php
Webmaster email: wm@violet.bg
Originally posted 35 months ago. (permalink)
Patrick Hoff edited this topic 35 months ago.

zdeto    says:

So that's it? It's all over? Was this just a little storm in a glass of water? Because I fail to see any results and my panos are still on the pan0.net website, without the proper attributions.
Originally posted 34 months ago. (permalink)
zdeto edited this topic 34 months ago.

hangglide says:

This is the response I got from Flickr when I sent an e-mail stating that many users in the Equirectangular group were upset about their photos being stolen. Not much help:



Hello,

Thank you for contacting Flickr Customer Care.

I'll be more than glad to assist you.

If you want to avoid other people getting your photos, you
can set
privacy settings and also set them so no one can download
them.

You can set a default photo privacy level for all your
uploads here:

www.flickr.com/account/prefs/photoprivacy/

To change the privacy level on individual photos:

1. Go to the photo's page.

2. On the right-hand side of the page it will show who "can
see this
photo" (anyone, only friends, only family, or only you,
depending on the
settings). Click on "edit" next to that sentence to change
the privacy
settings on that photo.

Please note that this will only affect the new photos you
put up.

For all of the photos you have already uploaded, they can
be changed in
the "Organize" section of the site. Select "all your
content" from the
"organize" pulldown. From there you can choose select
photos you wish to
change into main page. Then you select the "permissions"
tab at the top
and change who can see them.

For information on how to change the privacy settings on
photos in a
batch and more please see our FAQ at:

- www.flickr.com/help/photos/#141

You can set a global preference at:

- flickr.com/account/prefs/downloads/

that controls who can download all the versions of your
photos. Just
select a setting from "Only Me" to "Anyone." This setting
applies to
all your photos and is combined with your privacy settings.

Say you publish a photo of ice cream. If you're sharing
that photo with
only friends, they are the only people who can see it. Even
if you set
it so "Anyone" can download the photo, your friends are
still the only
people who can see it and thus download it.

If you applied a Creative Commons license to your photos,
they can be
downloaded by anyone. If you don't want others to download
your photos,
remove the Creative Commons license.

The default license for your photos can be changed here:

- flickr.com/account/prefs/license/

To disable downloading you will need to select "(None) All
rights
reserved."

To add or remove a license for a specific photo click the
edit link
next to your current photo license (under Additional
Information on the
photo page)

Thank you again for contacting us. If you have any other
questions,
please feel free to reply to this email.
Regards,


Ian
Flickr Customer Care
Posted 34 months ago. (permalink)

Mantis of Destiny    says:

I have sent emails to madwitch@data.bg (Sofia at pan0.net) repeatedly asking to have my panoramas removed from pan0.net and making clear that I do not grant permission for them to use my panoramas. But they continue to use and redistribute my images without permission and without correct attribution. This is basic copyright stuff. Since they choose to be obtuse and willfully misinterpret copyright, I have taken to posting the following warning on the the Flickr site of photos they have used:

"Note: this image has been stolen by pan0.net and used in violation of copyright, despite repeated contacts asking them to desist. If you have any contact with pan0.net... BEWARE. Read the discussion at
www.flickr.com/groups/equirectangular/discuss/72157620918...;

I suggest that we make it clear with this kind of public comment that pan0.net is not a service with integrity and that they do not respect the basic rights of photographers. Anyone who has dealings with pan0.net can plainly see from this discussion that they are not people with whom you should entrust your images. I encourage anyone else who is having this problem with pan0.net to take a similar approach. If nothing else it will serve as a warning to potential users of that service. AVOID Pan0.net.
Posted 34 months ago. (permalink)