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The group's rules are photos and videos... Dunno really, not really given the submission criteria much thought, aside from allowing videos....
What do you think?
Originally posted 32 months ago.
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davefitch edited this topic 32 months ago.
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Sorry - I missed this thread.
I'd be inclined to say no (I'm not even in favour of the videos but I bow to popular opinion on that one :¬) but I think flickr is a photo sharing site.
Posting into a thread with anything you think might be of interest might be best.
Posted 31 months ago.
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I disagree. This forum is Edinburgh, not Edinburgh photographers or photography. It should be a forum that allows other forms of arts including drawings. While Flickr is a photo sharing site it is a jpeg file sharing site. Jpegs are often photographs but there is not a limit to a jpeg compression of a file. It could anything from an image, graph excel extract or text. Please don't exclude drawings, paintings or line sketches of Edinburgh. I think its only fair to allow other artistic representations.
Why conform to the broad use of Flickr, god knows other forums don't. Break that social boundary and let Flickr be a social sharing environment free of the restraints of consumer photography. In is broad use its a file sharing medium for the discussion of that file. I can site a huge number of groups that break the general rule of it being photography or if we get low brow about it even artistic social file sharing.
Stu has some very interesting stuff which shows Edinburgh in a different light, something that is very hard to do in photographic terms due to the sheer number of similar compositions (E.g. the castle or the parliament etc).
As per the name of this group it is geographic based. I wonder if the group would allow jpeg representations of Edinburgh based geological data, after all a map or rock type map can still be artistic, constitute knowledge and are Edinburgh orientated, they just happen to be done using a different recording medium.
Looking through the group pool there are a huge number of images that are not Edinburgh centric although may or may not have been taken in the city. A bottle of ketchup is not exactly geographically based.
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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Fisher_Photographics edited this topic 31 months ago.
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I would say no but thats just me............ im here for photography, not videography, not drawings, just photography, and whilst some of hte drawings in questions are undoubtably better than anything i can do, i would be very hesitant to look thru a pool which contained them. but as i say thats just me........
Posted 31 months ago.
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You cant just state your opinion, you need to back it up with why. Why restrict yourself to a single artistic medium. We are all here to presumably put artistic ideas across to others (and in this case, of this forum in a geographically centred manner). I think its very important not to care about the medium but to respect the metaphorical ideas or literal ideas put forward in a piece. Video has a special way of being able to show emotional progression where as other pieces are more static. Photography has the charm that its light based and 'the camera never lies' (unless you photoshop it). drawings and paintings can be manipulated at the time of drawing but can sometimes show a view that photography cant. In a group designed around a city rather than a specific medium (other than as discussed earlier the apparent photography rather than jpeg usage of this website) I think other medium should be valid.
Lets not mention that actually in terms of modern, auto function digital based consumer photography, a painting or a sketch actually offers a higher level of skill. While I know some members of this forum use full manual film photography i hazard a guess that a huge number of images are taken in full manual mode. My drawing skills are firmly limited to the technical rather than artistic and stu's drawings are far better than mine but to out right refuse an artistic medium in a forum that is city based rather than medium based is unfair.
This is NOT Edinburgh Photographers. Any artistic medium that shows Edinburgh in an artistic light should be acceptable, especially as the jpeg standard can be used to compress so many forms of visual imagery.
Posted 31 months ago.
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Hi again - thanks to Fisher, Fiona, Photopath and Dave for replying. Good of you to take the time. The criteria says "photo's" that's why I was checking to see if everyone was cool with throwing in an occasional sketch. As before, just delete me as a member if you don't want them - I won't take offence! I just thought it would be a nice mix of medium. Good weekend to you all.
Posted 31 months ago.
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@ fishers photographics....... i believe i DID state a reason when i voiced my opinion............ im here for photography.
@ Stupot, ............ as David ( photopath) suggested.... start a thread to post your drawings in so that way people who ARE interested in drawings can find them easily....... ? and they are really nice please dont take it personally! :)
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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FionaBrimsPhotography edited this topic 31 months ago.
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I welcome your drawings, they're excellent and worthy of calling attention to them! Going to keep an eye on your stream, that much is certain.
As usual the naysayers determine the tone in this place. I really don't understand the sourness, is it the weather?
Posted 31 months ago.
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First of all, I don't think anyone was being sour.
And at the moment - there's a fairly even split between the yes and the no so I'm not in favour of changing anything just now.
Posting to complain about "naysayers" and accusing them of sourness just because they don't happen to agree with your particular train of thought is probably more of a problem.
I joined flickr to share photographs because I'm a photographer - there are lots of other sites where mixed media is acceptable, I just don't think that's what flickr is for. And good as the drawings may be - they are drawings, not photographs.
I have a friend in Edinburgh who does lovely felt-work - should I get her to put it in the pool too?
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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photopath edited this topic 31 months ago.
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"You cant just state your opinion, you need to back it up with why..."
Eh.. no, actually, you can - all we are doing here is taking a quick straw poll of yes and no. Backing up your yes or no with reasoned argument might help to sway anyone who was in two minds in your direction but it's far from compulsory.
Posted 31 months ago.
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just because they don't happen to agree with your particular train of thought
That's not it. It's because they're opposed to any sort of change. "It is supposed to be what it is now" is post-hoc ergo propter-hoc reasoning. And it's a knee-jerk reaction. But then again that is the sort of ignorant thing that I've come to know and love Edinburgh groups for.
I have a friend in Edinburgh who does lovely felt-work - should I get her to put it in the pool too?
If it is as lovely a depiction of Edinburgh as those drawings - hell yes!
I hardly see the distinction between photos - photoshopped photos - and drawings. How many photos of statues are in here? They must be banned - there should be a separate site for sculptures. Unless photos of sculptures are ok - then we can simply post pictures of drawings as well.
I also oppose to your "It's just a straw poll" with the moderators voicing their opinions first...
Posted 31 months ago.
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i think you are taking a lot on yourself when you reason that people say no because they hate change........ why do you think you konw why someone has said no................
i cant and wont speak for anyone else...... but as i have said before the reason i said no was the same reason i disagree with videos......... is I am a photographer... not an artist ... not a felt maker or craftsperson....... not a videographer.... and whilst all these in their own right are I am sure something that requires talent, skill and attention to detail as well as a passion inherent in the person doing it......... its NOT why im here, its nothing to do with edinburgh groups, i dont even live in Edinburgh but i DO photograph it and I AM interested in PHOTOGRAPHS of the place and many other places....... If i wanted to show an interest in other media types i would do more on red bubble where everything is accepted and welcomed......... which is why i joined and have hardly been back.
Please dont speak for others when you are putting what YOU think onto what THEY think, its not really a nice thing to do and some would even call it quite an arrogant thing to do. You may hardly see the distinction between drawgins and photographs but others obviously so.
and now im off for some typing lessons! ;)
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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FionaBrimsPhotography edited this topic 31 months ago.
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If you type in CAPS or bold, you are more right. Well, if you feel the need for it.
So, I can have an opinion on your motives but mine is arrogant. Alright. Do you even see what you accuse me of is what you're doing?
Another group that perfectly aligns with the Edinburgh atmosphere. Time to get the eff out of both.
Best of luck to you all...
Posted 31 months ago.
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the reason someone types in caps is to emphasise a point that usually can be emphasised on tonal variation when speaking face to face with someone..................when you say "its BECAUSE ( emphasising the word) you are stating a fact, you didint say " PROBABLY because" ( again in caps to emphasis a word) which would have been voicing an opinion........... there is a massive difference.
i said I THINK which shows it was MY opinion not a fact. i thien went on to ask why you thought that was so........... giving you every reason to explain it was an opinion........ and i did not call you arrogant., i said that some people would think it was arrogant...............
the english language is full of nuances all with different meaning, all the more reason for people t o learn that there are usually more than one meaning to a word depending on how it is said / typed...........
no one is forcing you to go or do anything.......... your choice.... but it would be nice not to spit the dummy just cos you cant get your own way. you are saying we dont like change, but u take a strop when we dont agree with you............. hmmmmmmmmmm ....
i dont post a lot in this group, I voiced my opinion on something and cos it wasnt what you wanted to hear its been made into this big deal....... enough said .
Posted 31 months ago.
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What was that all about?
Posted 31 months ago.
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not sure.......... someone who doesnt like edinburgh groups or people who dare to have a difference of opinion............. i think..........
Posted 31 months ago.
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Divided public opinion is perfectly fine and true to life. Wanting to keep in line with current forum rules is also fine but i emphasise that this isnt Edinburgh photographers neither is Flickr a static medium sharing site. It is true that Flickr started out as a photo sharing site but it has changed radically in the years it has been operational to the extent that many forms of graphical art are accepted on its servers. While no one is accusing the group of not wanting to change, sometimes that change is forced by changing usage.
There is a huge array of different mediums present on flickr, everything from photos, video, paintings, drawings, charcoal sketches, photoshop manipulated images, and computer graphical arts. I understand others users point of view in that they are here for photography but to not allow a certain type of content just because e its not what you are here for isnt great, others for example might want to look at that material.
Personally I am with Remco in his thinking that a geographical centric group should accepts all forms of art that are Edinburgh based. Or shall we start up another group dedicated to other artistic media? It seems silly to have a huge number of groups for the same geographic location when it would be perfectly nice to have just one. Edinburgh Photographers already exists, perhaps we should start Edinburgh Painters, Edinburgh Sketchers, Edinburgh Sculpture, Edinburgh Crafts, Edinburgh Computer Graphics, Edinburgh Music Photography, Edinburgh Graffiti, Edinburgh Fashion and Design, Edinburgh Interior Design, Edinburgh Architecture etc?
I do think that often seeing other art forms in the same group can give new ideas and inspiration, especially when they are very very good. New artistic ideas can freely flow and other art forms can get critique at a similar level to photography critique. It is very easy to say that an individual is a photographer rather than an artist but its a very similar mentality to being stuck into one style of music. Open up to other genres and let their ideas influence your work.
I say if its Edinburgh geographically centric it should be allowed. Flickr is fast becoming a media sharing service rather than photography only. Perhaps Edinburgh Photographers is a better place for Photography specific and geocentric discussions and images.
@Photopath: I understand that is its not a requirement to voice reasoned argument for or against the OPs request, however in the effort to be courteous it would be nice to let Stu know why his material is being rejected rather than simply stating that fact. To answer a fellow artist with a simple 'No' and no reasoning is slightly harsh.
Interestingly I would like to put forward an image. Is this image suitable for the pool? It is photography after all but is it geocentric as the name of this group would suggest, or would you rather I started an Edinburgh group for Latin based street graffiti in Edinburgh?
www.flickr.com/photos/fisher_photographics/3421595353/
The quote by the way is about St Paul's in London, rather far removed from Edinburgh itself.
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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Fisher_Photographics edited this topic 31 months ago.
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www.flickr.com/photos/fisher_photographics/3421595353/ is perfectly acceptable in the Edinburgh pool - assuming it's on a wall in Edinburgh. But I had to think fairly long and hard about exactly why my immediate reaction was yes, yet I'm still not comfortable with drawings / paintings / computer graphics etc.
My logic would go something along the lines of....
Is it in Edinburgh?
Is it a photograph?
Does it show an aspect of Edinburgh?
Does it show someone in Edinburgh?
Does it remind me of Edinburgh?
Does it have an Edinburgh flavour?
You'll have had your Tea?
In which case - it ticks enough of the boxes for me to give it a "yes"
There are, as has already been mentioned in several posts, many sites for mixed media, art etc. and in most of them (not all) photography is seen as something of a young and slightly unruly child making far too much noise and daring to sit at table with the "big boys" I suppose, as photography is my art (even though I do take inspiration from many other sources) then I feel I need to defend photography and I actually enjoy having a photo only pool to browse from time to time. I suspect I'm not alone in that either.
As there is still not a compelling and overwhelming flood of votes in favour of allowing sketches into the pool then the sensible thing to do is to leave things as they are. That's not a "head in the sand" response, nor is simply because it happens to be in line with my own personal feeling on the matter. (if that was the case there would be a "no video" rule - and probably a ban on camera phones too :¬)
To pick up on your music parallel -- I suspect if Ozzy Osbourne or Vanessa Mae were to offer to play at the Edinburgh fiddlers rally or the Edinburgh folk festival the offer might be very politely declined - which may or may not be a good thing!
Two people calling for sketches to be allowed (three if you include poor stupot. or back to two if ultranalog has really left us) agains three "let's keep it photo's only" is the current score but I'd be delighted if other folks were to chime in with their own views and opinions - even if it is a simple yae or nae - this isn't about stupot's work - it's about the general principle of accepting non photographic media into the Edinburgh pool on flickr - which still bills itself as a photo-sharing site
"Flickr is almost certainly the best online photo management and sharing application in the world. Show off your favorite photos and videos to the world, ..."
From their own strap-line.
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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photopath edited this topic 31 months ago.
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That's all cool - no worries - I'll stop posting drawings. I understand.
I think when you see the recent photos of bicycle-speedway from Redbraes park that I'm going to upload, you'll be wishing you'd let me stick to drawings!
Posted 31 months ago.
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However, (he says, having missed most of the discussion) this group is just titled Edinburgh; I would argue that the Edinburgh Photographers group would be unsuited to non-camera-based media, but this one perhaps not. And after all, Flickr does have the specifications in the group set up to allow or disallow drawings, so they clearly recognise that some people might want it.
Posted 31 months ago.
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I get what you are saying Chris but why should every boundary be in a groups title. I am not a member of EP nor do i want to become a member. Its a bit unfair to say to members that they have to join another group if they want a certain thing to be allowed/ disallowed.
@ fisher photographics. i get what you are saying in that just cos someone is a tog it doesnt mean they cant branch out........ and if thats what floats other folks boats that fine...... but i dont want to branch out, have no interest in drawing painting sketching or any other kind of media.....which is why i enjpy being a part of a group that is ONLY photographs.
Posted 31 months ago.
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+1 for allowing graphic art. I think its a shame to tell people to go elsewhere (join another group) just because you're not personally interested in the medium they are using. Groups get stale and boring if they are too restricted...and has already been said the boundary between 'photography' and 'drawing' is increasingly blurred - and was never clear cut.
Posted 31 months ago.
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Well I don't think 'I' can be accused of being scared of change, but I am going to have to vote on the negative, that is a no to drawings in flickr as a whole actually. Simply put this is a site for the photographic medium. There are many types of photography as there are opinions of what is good photography and I feel that to keep this site to just one helps with learning, comparisons and the overall enjoyment of photography. If we want mindless chitchat we got to twitter, bog boring life details - face book, but I love photography, and I can draw, but I would much prefer just one medium on flickr and that of photography.
I don't even like the fact videos are here but I am warming to them as the ones I have seen are very artistic and not at all like what one finds on youtube - though the videos are also put on there too.
(Fi: Sorry to disagree, but writing in capitals in e-mail, MSN and the internet is seen as SHOUTING by the internet community and there are a number of articles and even books that mention this. It has a lot to do with the form of the letters, the square shapes that make them, are seen as aggressive by quite a number of people. Edit: though your use of them does imply emphasis on the word as you wished and have indicated as such. )
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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Kwozie edited this topic 31 months ago.
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Funny how nobody questions why we should all feel entitled to share our 'opinions' here on flickr. They are even less like photographs than drawings :-)
Posted 31 months ago.
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Oh trust me there is a lot of questions, and answers, on why we feel 'entitled' to share our opinions here on flickr. Basically this is a blog and that is exactly what it is for :)
Edit: Though from my experience a majority of the opinions are photography based - usually :)
Edit: Just image what it would be like if we did not follow social protocols and were completely honest about the photographs we saw. I predict war!
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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Kwozie edited this topic 31 months ago.
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The person wanting to contribute to the group is an artist. I don't care if it's not photography, he's still contributing artistically to the group... which is a lot more than can be said of some people contributing to this thread.
And for the record, Flickr emerged from the leftovers of a computer game.
Posted 31 months ago.
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Also, sounds like Fiona doesn't consider photography an art form. That's understandable. But she's forgetting that a large part of the photography community are artistic photographers specialising in fine art photography.
Posted 31 months ago.
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ok first of all....... suze, i didint for one minute expect nor mean for anyone to loveave cos they dont agree with me.. but if myself or anyone else wants to be in an edinburgh group that is just for phtoogrpahy, Chris seemd to be suggesting there is already a group there for us to join. im say why should we?.........
@ Kwozi.... having moderated in chat rooms for years im well versed in internet protocol. ;) which is why i never type everything in caps. as i said i use caps as its the only way you can emphasis something.......sometimes it would be nice to have a proper conversation wthout worrying about other people picking you up the wrong way! :)
@ KJ. im not forgetting anything....... from the start i said it was ONLY my opinion............. selfish it may be but im not here for anyone else im here for me so where other photogrpahers come from is of no interest to me, if someone is a good photographer it matters not one jot where they base their inspiration from or on. but just because i respect someone as a photographer doesnt mean i want to see their drawings!.
photography is a FORM of art....... that has nothing whatsoever to do with drawing/ painting/ sketching
Posted 31 months ago.
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You're in the wrong place then, because Flickr is pretty much the biggest photographic social network on the planet. If you're not interested in anyone else I suggest you build a website and stick to that.
I also have to say, that perhaps you should take an interest in other photographers work, it'll speed up your development and increase your appreciation for it.
Frankly I hope to see those drawings being submitted to the group pool.
Posted 31 months ago.
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Obviously you read what you wanted to read, . i did say if someone is a good tog it doesnt matter where they come from......... we are all here for ourselves or am i missing the alturistic reasoning that we are here for other people........... we are here for ourselves to learn from others. whats wrong in admitting something that most folk wouldnt? or do we have to kiss ass all the time and not be honest?......... sorry im breaking the protocols of social networking, we arent allowed to be honest and speak our minds here?
oh by the way i already have my own site but thanks for the advice.
is it wrong to say that im happy with the way my photography has and will continue todevelope , and yes some of it is in part due to flicker and the amazing friends I have made here.
does it worry me if you see it differently........................ nope sorry not in the slightest.
Posted 31 months ago.
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sorry suze big huge space between posts it did kinda get lost in translation there. no matter wasnt THAT important.................. asterix or caps, it means the same, i have used caps in single words probably for the last 12 years + of internet useage,, cant teach an old dog new tricks . :)
Posted 31 months ago.
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I'm glad it doesn't worry you. I'm not all that bothered to be honest because I don't even know you. I just think that a person who has something to give artistically should be allowed to contribute to a group despite the ramblings of some self obsessed amateur photographer.
edit > Spelling mistake.
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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KJ (शिष्य) edited this topic 31 months ago.
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i just love the way people resort to name calling...... its just so very mature. And guess what you DONT know me..... so how you can name call at this early stage is beyond me,,, and by the way I am many things, and yes many names would have suited me..... self obsessed however is as far from me as you could possibly get............ i actually prefer loud mouthed opinionated is far more suitable.. see i do know my own faults much better than ANYONE. but being loud mouthed and opinionated does not make me self obsessed.
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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FionaBrimsPhotography edited this topic 31 months ago.
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I've not called you any names...
I do however think it's a shame that you've managed to turn this thread from being a discussion about the merits of adding illustration to the pool into one about yourself.
Posted 31 months ago.
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um hang on did i miss something..... so the term " self obsessed amateur photographer" wasnt aimed at me.??......... thats good i can sleep easy............... as to turning the thread into anything other that what it is,....... i have only responded to other comments..... the other however many members of the group can add their tuppence worth whenever they want! off to bed now tarra!
Posted 31 months ago.
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Guys (and girls)
PLAY NICE
and yes - I am shouting.
Posted 31 months ago.
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Fiona, there are degree courses on the relationship between painting and photography...and some really fantastic artists that bridge the gap with truly hybrid works. Would it be possible for you to ignore the occasional thumbnail in this group so that others can enjoy wider horizons?
Posted 31 months ago.
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Dan, its not up to me as I have said a couple of times, my opinions are just that, mine, as we were all asked to give our opinions i did. Its not up to me what the admins decide.
Posted 31 months ago.
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Wait a minute! Aren't these photographs of drawings? So they're photographs! And they depict Edinburgh. So what's the problem? And if there is a problem, why doesn't it apply to graffiti?
I note too that taking good photographs of drawings is a technical photographic skill with its own specific problems. Taking really good photographs of drawings requires a kind of studio set up.
Were votes something that mattered here I'd vote in favour of not barring photographs of drawings of Edinburgh. I'd probably take no interest in them, but I certainly don't object to others being interested and having them in the pool, and I'm in favour of encouraging diversity and variety of opinion, interest, etc.. They're extremely unlikely to swamp the pool, especially if drawers exert the same discipline as we photographers and only post the really good or specifically interesting ones :-)
[Just a quick check: did I manage to express my opinion about the topic without saying anything that could on a bad day be misinterpreted as implying personal criticism of anyone? Looks ok, so I can post this :-)]
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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Chris_Malcolm edited this topic 31 months ago.
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Rightly said Chris. Everything on this website is formatted into one of the few stable image formats, mainly the JPEG2000 standard. So Chris is right. These are photographs of a drawing.
As per usual the line has been crossed then another individual has got upset and its all gone to pot. Lets close this thread as obviously there needs to be a separate poll thread to sort a discussion like this.
Fiona is trying to protect herself which is fine, not wanting to accept other mediums is also fine and well within her opinions, but perhaps a democratic vote on the subject would be better than literally fighting this one out.
Many people will feel the same way as Fiona regarding other mediums but others will want to enrich their work with the ideas and metaphors of other work. As mentioned Fiona isnt big into the artistic side of photography. For users that are this groups should allow an artistic interpretation of Edinburgh as a geographical location rather than a static (and as mentioned stale) medium.
Photography it has to be said often doesn't require as much skill as drawing or sketching or painting and sadly that is often illustrated in the group pool. I'm not saying that fully auto exposure should be disallowed but should be respected for what it is. why use an auto system if you have the time to do things properly. Unlike (un-artistic) photography, sketching is very much biased to a spatial and temporal representation of a scene. With digital cameras (apart from composition, which is an artistic tool) it is the camera that does a great deal of the spatial imaging within the frame.
It also has to be said that there would be no harm in letting drawing into the pool, as discussed due to the usage of flickr they would be few and far between, would enrich other users and ultimately Fiona if you don't want to see it, you don't have to look.
Images in the pool are thumbnails. I'm sure you can sift through the pool even with sketches etc as they will be so small on your monitor that you can easily gloss over then as you wish. For other users, those thumbnails would be there for reference and can be easily clicked on for a larger, better view.
I do not disagree with any of the views in this discussion, they all have their merits but its a sad state of affairs when an artist cant publish their material in a geocentric forum just because people have opposing views as to Flickr's purpose.
Flickr is not a photo sharing site, it is a jpeg and mp4 sharing site, and as mentioned will morph and change as social convention dictates.
I'm not sure why the discussion went so off topic onto internet etiquette but they are right Fiona, all those '.......' and capital letters do make for quite difficult and fragmented reading.
@Fiona: To say photography has no connection with sketching or painting isnt strictly correct. For a start both are taking a static time spatial representation of a scene. All can be used to put forward an artistic or metaphorical message and in quite a number of instances they both have a similar effect on peoples emotions. To segregate them purely on the type of paper they are rendered on or by the use of a lens or a hand isnt in keeping with the general artistic ideal (but then as stated that's not what your into so fair enough)....................
Posted 31 months ago.
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Just to be mischievous (not like me.....)
"Aren't these photographs of drawings? So they're photographs! And they depict Edinburgh...."
But.. are they photographs of drawings depicting Edinburgh taken in Edinburgh??
To be serious for a moment - I'm perfectly happy for stupot to post his drawings into the pool, but having done so it makes it harder in future to stop someone posting, for instance, computer graphics or etch-a-sketch pictures,
Actually - thinking about it -- If someone produced anything recognisable as Edinburgh on an etch-a-sketch I'd be more than impressed! (I'd think they were more than a bit sad and should probably get out more.... but I'd be impressed)
Posted 31 months ago.
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The Peoples Front of Judea!
Swing by any time, you're all welcome!
Posted 31 months ago.
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OK Foxy.... (or was that something else altogether....)
Posted 31 months ago.
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Nice one. Mind if I join even though I can't draw a straight line with a ruler?
Posted 31 months ago.
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AlanSP [deleted] says:
Can't draw for toffee, if I could I'd give up photography!
Signed up to Stu's group :-)
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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AlanSP edited this topic 31 months ago.
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Join away - everyone will be made welcome.
Posted 31 months ago.
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