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The New Cold PLay Album...
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Why? Why? Why? For the love of God can't worship music sound that good?
It seems that worship and "christian" music misses the mark... BIG time.
Why?
Well my take is simple.
Coldplay makes music because they LOVE music. They have a passion for music. They have a passion that they poor into their art. They bleed music and it doesn't hurt that they have talent, but you can have all the talent and if you have no love or passion its not going to hit the heart of your audience as much.
This may sound weird, but the Vida La Vida draws my heart and mind more to the Lord than a lot of current worship music... not because of the lyrics... because of the soul... the art... the movement of music...
Most contemperary christian music lacks passion, lacks love, lacks integrity. It focuses on sounding good, and sounding like what the world is producing. INstead of focusing on the music, the heart of music, the essence of music. Instead of having a love for music, a passion for music and offering that love and passion up to the Lord and say, here take my love, take my passion, take my soul.
Its cosmetic, and fake, and thats why it sounds cheesey.
Well, most of it, about 95% of it in my opinion.
And thats why I stick to the old hymnals, sung by black gospel quires. Its the word of God in song form sung with passion, love, and conviction.
When we can write music with heart and soul, with passion and love, conviction, and some balls... it might start sounding as good as the new Coldplay, Vida La Vida. It might....
This of course can apply to visual arts as well.
Originally posted at 12:22PM, 26 June 2008 PST
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The P is UNLEASHED edited this topic 17 months ago.
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Amen brotha!!! Amen!
Posted 17 months ago.
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Listening to it right now!
Posted 17 months ago.
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i am listening to "Cemeteries Of London" right now. I hear you Sean.
Posted 17 months ago.
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Hmmmm,
Even though Christian music has improved sooooo much I COMPLETELY agree with you. I don’t own any!
In fact, when I first got off the streets I started a Christian band primarily because I didn’t like any Christian music and wanted to produce something with excellence.
I don’t believe I have ever shared this link publicly and I rarely share it privately. Here is a page that is just a place holder for 2 mp3’s and an old video.
members.tripod.com/~meatfed/
Trust me, I am not saying we are all that, but we did make history in Hollywood a few times. Please note: the mp3’s are really good – the video is ….ok. It was my first attempt at a music video and the total budget was $12 or the cost of 2 tapes. TBN played it all the time back then. I borrowed everything and this is long before computer editing so I Mickey Mouse’d two decks together and made hard cuts. When you see the flipped shots that is me with my back on the ground shooting upside down. People thought I was nuts. Man has editing come a long way! The mp3 of “when I close my eyes” is one of the best for the group. You may like it.
Oh, the history. One year we headlined the Whisky 9 times and played the Roxy 7 times. I hated Christian nights or church gigs – boring! Plus they always gave us rules. Playing bible colleges was always ruff, too! Playing secular gigs was at times a little crazy but so much fun. Literally the promoters would play with us and put us next to Death Metal bands or lesbian bands on purpose. I admit a few gigs were a little scary. But God always took control and we rocked the house.
At the Whisky you share a dressing room with another band. Almost at every gig the other band would be smoking dope and we would be praying. Not in a freaky “over saved” way. I once read that a person comes to Christ after 25 attempts on average. That means that 24 people gave a bad impression. Our goal was to make up for those bad impressions. We never preached, just sang and loved on people, and partied like crazy – sober! On each occasion the band that was smoking dope would be down right in front watching us, which is very rare.
Anyway, one year during a pastor school at the Dream Center I bused in 400 pastors to the Whisky A Go Go. One of the most famous clubs in the world! So, I can guarantee that it was the first time (and probably the last) that 400 men of God where in the club. Plus, I would wager that 390 of those pastors had never been in a bar before! Ok, maybe 340 LOL. It was an awesome night on the Sunset Strip.
I am getting the itch to start playing again and it just so happens I am moving back to LaLa Land.
Sean, can’t wait to hook up and love your post on gay marriage.
-M
Posted 17 months ago.
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[devil's advocate]
what if someone doesn't enjoy coldplay stylistically, or doesn't enjoy Martin's vocals?
Are they exempt from feeling or seeing God in that art?
[/devil's advocate]
Personally, I do like coldplay and I really enjoy their new album, but it's easy to paint with a really broad stroke here and leave out what actually connects people to the music they love (be it christian or not)...their own personal preferences.
Originally posted 17 months ago.
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Russ Hutto edited this topic 17 months ago.
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o come on! Stryper's "to hell with the devil" is so way cooler and more awesumeer than cold play will be EVAR!
I think the reason is is that a christian artist almost has to be fake to be acceptable to the christian world. Everything has to be happy, uplifting, wonderful, rainbows and kittens to be acceptable and not condemned to judgement.
But everyone beyond the age of 2 knows that this is not the case. Life is tough and hard and dirty and many times you are angry and frusterated and upset.
But no if any type of art is shown to be anything but, it's obviously not christian.
Posted 17 months ago.
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@russ: if you focus on minute points like personal preference I fear you might you miss my point entirely. Take Coldplay out of the post and replace with any band you like. Then read again. I just used Coldplay as an example.
The point being that Christian Music sucks. The rap, the R&B, the Rock, The Country, The worship, etc.
I am cocky enough to say that if you like Christian Music better than most secular... you have bad taste in music and are obviously uneducated and you might lack a soul!!! :-P
It sucks because it has no heart, no soul, and no testicle fortitude. Contemporary Christian Music is a glass vase that sits empty on a dusty shelf.
Originally posted 17 months ago.
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The P is UNLEASHED edited this topic 17 months ago.
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:open can:
:)
Posted 17 months ago.
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Do you SMELLLLLLL LELELELELELELEL What the Salt is cooking!?!?!?!
Posted 17 months ago.
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I love Coldplay, but I have to admit, every time I see Chris Martin "dance" in that Apple commercial, I like them a little less. Does he remind anyone else of Elaine on Seinfeld? He's a guy who needs to always have an instrument in his hands, even if he's not playing it.
To be honest, if a band identifies themselves as a "Christian band," that is the point where I start preparing for them to suck.
Posted 17 months ago.
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@Sean: wow. I've just been officially smacked down by SeanP. Hell hath no fury...
I get your point.
I agree with your point. I like Stryper...er...I mean Coldplay.
I like music for music's sake. In fact music is a bigger part of my life than design. I've played for years. I've studied for years. I studied Music/Theory and Comp in college. I'm well aware of what makes "good" music...In fact, to borrow a little of the SeanP "Saltery," I probably have more good music in my pinky finger than most of the crap that spews from our radio stations here in the States.
The problem with CCM (Christian music in general) is that it's exactly the same as mainstream music...except the pond is smaller. It's the same business with the same goal: mo money.
Most people consume mainstream and CCM like french fries and potato chips. Fry it up and cover it with enough salt and you begin to forget that it's basically a juiced, over preserved cardboard tasting potato that kills you slowly.
I listen to music like a tasting a fine wine, or grilling the perfect steak. I don't mindlessly listen to it. It's not blaring through an ipod 24/7 or in my car every waking minute. I enjoy it. I feel it. I analyze it. I love it.
My point wasn't to disagree with what you said. I totally agree that music that lacks heart, soul, and passion is the sux.
I just wanted to point out that each person's experience is gonna be different because of personal preference.
Take for example: SeanP who loves him some coldplay.
Someone else (unnamed) might not "prefer" the sound of his voice or (as stated) his dance moves. That personal preference in itself shifts their "experience" of "feeling" the heart and soul of any music in a different direction.
It all comes back to the way music is consumed. Is it just a side order that remains in your system because of zombie repetition, or is it something that haunts you because of it's inherent greatness!
To the average observer those may not look too different.
And like you said there is a small percentage of "christian" music that is redeemable. Because of personal preference you may not agree with this...but I think Keith Green's earliest stuff is amazing, filed with heart, passion, and definitely some cahoneys.
Posted 17 months ago.
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OMG so true Russ. So True.
CCM = Britney Spears...
I like U2. Its the only "christian music" I can swallow. In fact I love U2. LOVE LOVE LOVE U2. and they lub Jesus, well at least 3/4s of them do :-P
There is always DC Talk . . .
Posted 17 months ago.
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I guess the greatest christian music star just got a gig with Bono...
filled with "[P]saltery"
Posted 17 months ago.
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I heart u2 as well.
Posted 17 months ago.
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I honestly don't think that it's JUST a problem with the Christian music scene. I think Christian music is reflecting what society demands.
At the moment, society demands complete crap. Dude rock, girl pop, freaking repetitive rap.
I hate non-christian radio JUST AS MUCH as Christian radio. It's the same formula, over and over again.
Thank God I was raised by two bizarre hippy artists. They showed me how beautiful music can make your life.
Seriously... go rent "The Last Waltz."
The Band, Van Morrison, Bob Dylan. Good times.
Posted 17 months ago.
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I was living in southern cal when Tooth and Nail was signing “Christian” bands like crazy. Many were only pretending and I’ll leave that for you to process anyway you want. The whole scene was money driven.
Frank Zappa once said “the music business is about selling pieces of plastic with cardboard folders”. Art, or talent, or beliefs have nothing to do with it – profit is all that matters.
It is not just music. Walk into any Christian bookstore these days.
Let’s face it. With Mel Gibson’s help corporate America is now more than ever looking at us with $ in their eyes. Lots of it makes me sick. For example, a few years back a few really low budget just horrible “Christian” movies were produced. It was marketed to us Christians as an evangelist tool. Not because they wanted to follow the great commission. But because it saved on the bottom line and increased revenue. The marketing strategy for the films, developed not by a Christian agency, was to pitch the movie in such a way we are to run out and buy hundreds of ticket to give to the unsaved. Seriously! And the films were horrible in production quality, which the producers knew. It was ALL about money!
Christians are cheap and we have huge egos. We don’t want to produce anything with excellence because it costs too much. Heck, Sister Mary can really sing (like a seagull) so let’s cut a CD and get it on Itunes. We’ll make a webpage (for no money) and promote a tour! There are so many really bad Christian musicians touring the small church circuit it is astonishing.
The last election there was a great documentary on PBS about both candidates. One of the best because it was unbiased. What caught my attention was when George W was helping his father run for office he had a meeting with all the evangelical leaders. As Bush was leaving a camera caught him saying something like “getting these pastors to support my dad is easy”, at that moment we became important. Not because of moral issues and our beliefs, but votes. We are being manipulated. Nixon never cared about the environment yet he was instrumental in getting more environmental laws passed then anyone only because it was popular and in doing so he received more votes. Ohio swung the last election with the evangelical vote. It was a very consciously implemented political strategy that had absolutely nothing to do with the issues.
Commerce rules the (music) world both secular and Christian
Edit:
I should add we also treat church as business. Once I literally had to sit on my hands during a monthly marketing strategy meeting with a major ministry because I wanted to punch someone. They were crafting a homeless campaign for the holiday’s and not once were the actual needs of the homeless population EVER taken into consideration. Each item was suggested only because of profit margin and not usage. I don’t believe these are bad people, they just have to keep feeding a runaway monster and the train has left the station. Sure wish I had the answers while I keep praying for change
Originally posted 17 months ago.
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Hardly Normal edited this topic 17 months ago.
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My new favorite website:
www.patrolmag.com/
Posted 17 months ago.
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I don't think society demands crap as much as "the man" shoves it down society's throat.
In any era you see what "the man" thinks we should like, and then you see a counter culture of what society actually does want.
Then "The man" sees that what its making isn't cutting it, they grab onto the counter culture, mass produce that, and then we revolt yet again, and so on and so on the cycle continues.
CCM sees what "the man" is making, copies it, reflects it, then attached Jesus to it, and sells it. So in essence Christian Music is worse. Its a copy of a copy of a copy which = THE SUCK.
Posted 17 months ago.
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and Yes Mark is right.
Christian commerce produces more porn out of Nashville than porn produces make out of Chatsworth, Ca. TBN makes more christian porn than Vivid makes adult films, and lets face it, they have lower ethical business practices then smutt dealers as well.
So maybe Juliet is right... I just have a hard time seeing it since I have always been part of the counter culture here in NYC and Hollywood!
We had our scene, then Hot Topic came in and stole our studded belts and black hair. We evolved, not wanting to be like all the little rich brats in the Orange County copying us and labeling it "emo" even though we were making a look that was a hybrid from late 70's early 80's new wave, and late 80' early 90's hair metal. Then we softened up our hard look, had some influence from the 70's got a little artsy, then it became "scene" and we were called scenesters.
No matter what the counter culture scene in LA and NYC does, MTV snaps it up about 3 years into it, and blasts it into every known eyeball in the world, the counter culture MUST change, and thus the cycle...
Basically in short CCM is a bunch of parasites feeding off bigger parasites.
Posted 17 months ago.
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Ok i agree with the opinion on christian music. But doesn't it hold basically true for all music. The stuff they put on top 40 radio for the most part is so brainless. "Hey let's make a track on a computer program, have a pretty person sing some lyrics written by some 45 year old guy sitting in a office". Top ten singles right now:
1. i kissed a girl-Katy perry
2. Lollipop-Lil wayne
3. Bleeding Love-Leona Lewis
4. take a bow-Rihanna
5. Pocket full of sunshine-Natasha Bedingfield
6. Vida La VIda-Coldplay (ok we'll let that one go)
7. Forever- Chris Brown
8. I don't even know who what this one is but it is Featuring someone
9. Pussycat dolls
10 Miley Cyrus
Lot of soul and passion there. GO HANNA MONTANA
Music in general is pretty blasé these days, not just christian music. There are the roses among the weeds but for the most part people will just go ahead and buy the NOW 38 CD so they can have all their favorite music devoid of any soul in one place.
Posted 17 months ago.
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christian music sucks
Posted 17 months ago.
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At least in Secular music you see a lot of Roses. A LOT. Now and then. When you look at CCM you see NOTHING.
and the crap the world makes, is better than the best music CCM makes...
the point being they are supposed to be singing about the creator and savior, yet they sing with ZERO soul. Joe Cocker sang about sex and drugs, and he sang with more soul, passion and conviction in is finger nail clipping than CCM artists do with their entire being and a production crew!
Posted 17 months ago.
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I would venture to say there are a few "christian" musicians who make good music, it's harder to find them though because there are fewer as a whole.
It's easier to find the "roses" in the "secular" pond because the overall numbers of musicians are just larger.
That being said, why don't we try and list some of OUR favorite Christian music and why we think it may fall under the category of passionate art.
Most of mine are either very underground, or artists who ave gone on to corporate fame and fortune since their early stuff:
For example (and because of preference some may disagree):
DC Talk = Jesus Freak Album (everything else falls into the cheese category for me). To me, they found it with this one. Some of te songs were a bit cheesy, and I know a lot of you may not "see" the goodies in this one, but for me...it was the true "birth" of DC Talk. Everything prior was very cheddar. And everything after was downhill. Whether you liked them or not, you have to admit that they brought a unique combination of rap, rock, and soul at a time when there was only vocal ensemble bands, teenybop girl singers, and soaring ballad tenor dude singers.
Keith Green = I mentioned him earlier. I'm a piano player (among other instruments) and I connect with him immediately. His early stuff (though, it might be considered cheese today) is amazing. Filled with passion and heart. In fact, I've heard several band in the last few years (mainstream) that sounded just like Keith Green and thought to myself, "They think they're doing something original" but that sound is 30 years old.
Third Day = Yeah I know they're at the top of the corporate, ccm heap nowadays, but these fellow georgians used to have a raw, gritty, southern rock sound that was WAY more edgier than anything the've done in 10 years. Love their first album.
Michael Card = yes, yes. Definitely old man's music, but I love me some celtic stuff, and He does it well.
OC Supertones = Ok when ska was trendy these guys brought it. Not saying they weren't plucked from where they were and crafted into someting that would make cash, but I love teir earlier stuff. Again, because I'm an instrumentalist (trumpet all through middle, high, and college) I connected with these guys because they were making music with real instruments.
Rich Mullins = anybody else? I LOVE Rich Mullins. Any man who takes just about every known stringed instrument and makes glorious music with it is ok by me.
How about you? If you dig deep enough I bet you can find at least one Christian artist/band that you can connect with? Let's hear it.
Originally posted 17 months ago.
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Russ Hutto edited this topic 17 months ago.
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What we really need is more versions of I Could Sing of Your Love Forever and I Can Only Imagine.
There are so many thoughts here, its hard not to ramble.
These days, if the 80's wouldn't have existed, we would have "Christian" music. Why does covering 80's stuff and adding in god lyrics make a song "Christian"?
How exactly does a song become "Christian" or "secular" for that matter. Did the song hear someone reading the bible one day and decide to get its notes right in case it went to the big staff in the sky? I digress.
CCM sucks because they water it down to be palatable to everyone which ultimately, makes it tolerable by few. They have an audience because there are people that tell Christians that is what they should listen to or they will go to hell. Exchanging musical hell for hell hell is a pretty good trade-off though.
CCM isn't the only suckapalooza around though. Mainstream is in a state of suckedry right now as well. Music today is about turning a buck (for most) so its all about what can generate dollars the fastest and get out of the way for the next act. People don't master their instruments (or their voices - thats what effects are for right?).
To find anything worth listening to is going to require some work on the listener's part - more than looking at the itunes top 10.
I don't really have a good way to sum all this up except to say coldplay is a radiohead wannabe. :)
And yes, I have all albums from both of them. :)
Now everyone sing, over the mountains and the sea.........
Posted 17 months ago.
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Unfortunately, I'm not is the best position to say much about music, Christian or otherwise. I haven't really had the money to buy any music since the late 90s. I do know there are some good Christian bands out there, but they tend to be either ignored or over done to the point that I can't stand them. For example, I drive for about 5-10 minutes to work during which time I listen to the radio. I tune it to a local Christian station because on the radio you just don't know what you will get.
Now, during this time I mostly hear them talking, which is fine. Of the 4-6 songs I hear during my max of 40 minutes commute total travel time each day, a minimum of 2 are Casting Crowns.
Now, the music isn't exactly my cup of tea, but I didn't despise them until I heard East from the West, or whatever that song is call, for the millionth time in a week. Seriously try to find another band people.
Speaking of good Christian bands, my sister, who is also a fan of the Beatles and Cold Play (she has eclectic tastes in music) is a huge Mute Math fan and has even gone so far as to buy me a CD, which I listen to fairly regularly at the office.
The point is there is something other than Christian worship and watered down rock out there if you will look.
Posted 17 months ago.
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Sean,
The classic hymns do sound "that good" (albeit with a different style), but sadly there aren't many bonafide hymnists in the world anymore. Just lame chorus-writers (feel free to apply "lame" to "chorus" or "writers" or both). So I'm totally with you on that front.
I will say, though, that the long-standing gripe against CCM is actually getting kind of worn, and, to some degree, actually offensive. Sure, there's lame, cheesy Christian music - but also quality stuff, if one takes the time to track it down.
Far more useful than lobbing obsolete complaints like yours (which simply echo the same complaints from others), would be some informed data-gathering and study that furnishes realistic statistics on what percentage of CCM is "lame and cheesy" in comparison to what percentage of secular music is likewise lame and cheesy. Being a fan of both secular and Christian-market music and hence having listened to a lot of both, I would not be the least bit surprised if the cheesy stuff turned out to be the same percentage in both Christian and secular music.
It's easy to take notice of super-groups like Coldplay (and I have nothing against them), U2, etc., and whine "Why can't Christians make music like this?" - while conveniently forgetting that there are simply far more nonChristians than Christians, hence more nonChristians making music - hence a greater number of nonChristians producing good music. But is there necessarily a greater percentage of nonChristians producing quality music, than there are of Christians producing the same? I seriously doubt it. And have you taken any notice of the steady stream of crap also issuing from our radio speakers when we're tuned in to the secular stations? You talk as if it's as simple as nonChristians making good music and Christians making bad. So you appear to drastically misrepresent reality here, and to be honest with you, that really bugs me.
In addition, I have found myself in the last couple of years revisiting some of the old Christian music I used to listen to as a teenager and at Bible college (I'm 40 now). Say what you want, but I find many of those old songs (particularly by Petra, Whiteheart, Daniel Band, and Twila Paris) very edifying - and while you or others may not like their style (although Daniel Band, I'll point out, did have a secular following in the local Toronto area, and won some contests), there's absolutely no basis with at least some Christian groups for claiming that they "lack passion, lack love, lack integrity" and for some reason lack "a love for music, a passion for music and offering that love and passion up to the Lord and say, here take my love, take my passion, take my soul. Its cosmetic, and fake, and thats why it sounds cheesey." Go back and listen to Petra's pre-1984 stuff, for example; it's good folk-rock that seems to me as good in quality as similar-styled music produced by nonChristians in that era. And to sit back and argue that such artists lack integrity or passion for what they're doing is just so much subjectivity on your part. How can you possibly know what's in their hearts? You've made a terribly broad blanket statement here, and a not-very-accurate one, at that.
Honestly? I think most of your argumentation is baseless, and that the issue largely boils down to (at least for many detractors of Christian music) a disdain for the explicit exaltation of Jesus by those same Christian artists. I would hazard to guess that if those artists had instead pursued a career in the secular market and had never been explicit about their faith in the songs they wrote, some of them would have been successful and would never have borne the brunt of the criticisms you and others so regularly level against them. There is a growing sector of Christendom that complains about Christians with public careers, especially in the arts, being too up-front about their faith. I think that's where a lot of this is coming from. Today it's all the rage to praise artists for supposedly making "good" art just because they're utterly vague and have nothing definitive to offer the world, as if mud is prettier than sunshine.
But there is yet another consideration: many Christian artists have come out of an evangelical heritage in which - obviously no fault of their own - their forebears shied away from cultural involvement and hence lost their musical edge. So in that context, then, many Christian artists should be commended for actually attempting to be culturally relevant insofar as artistic expression is concerned.
But in fact there is a greater percentage of quality Christian musicians than 10 or 20 or 30 years previously, so your complaint has less and less validity. I encourage you to rethink at least some of what you said.
Andy
Posted 17 months ago.
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I Can Sing of Your Love Forever... thats good music.
Lord Reign In Me
All Who Are Thirsty
Breathe
All Who Are Thirsty
and of course I love the song Majesty... but maybe I'm partial...
Of course I think most of the recordings of those songs are... cheesey. I do love it when my friends worship band sings them... they rock! Why don't they record? Well sadly they actually work for unsaid company... and anything Christian... especially Christian Music has more politics that Washington DC. Hence the sucking...
If we can ditch religious politics we might stop sucking... But thats one of MANY problems.
So there ya go I do love some CCM. I guess.
I'm not even going to take the time to respond to Andy's drivel. I'm right, I know it, I don't have time to research it... why should I. CCM is about reaching out to people that are unsaved right? Oh wit no its not, its about slapping an album together half ass and knowing that the Christian suckers will pay the 10-15 dollars even though they wrote, recorded and produced it in a day and half and put an ounce of love into it.
Posted 17 months ago.
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Just a list of some of my all time favorite bands because my taste in music is the awesome here is the top 20!
Morrissey, The Smiths
Echo and The Bunnymen
Joy Division
New Order
Depeche Mode
The Cure
Bauhaus
The Clash
David Bowie
Led Zeppelin
AC/DC
The Who
The Specials
Arcade Fire
VHS or BETA
The Beach Boys
Johnny Cash
Willie Nelson
Belle and Sebastian
Bright Eyes
Ben Folds Five
BRMC
Blue Öyster Cult
The Cult
Bob Dylan
Journey
Hal and Oates
Roxy Music
The Cars
Cat Stevens
Chris Isaak
Coldplay
Death cab (the older stuff)
Dinosaur Jr.
Elbow
Placebo
Elton John
The Faint
Feist
Fleetwood Mac
Franz Ferdinand
Gang of Four
Isreal Kamakawiwo'ole
Jess Buckley
Jesus and the Marychain
My Bloody Valentine
Lou Reed
John Mellencamp!!!!
U2
Coltrane
Miles Davis
Joni Mitchell
The Killers (the freshman album)
The Lassie Foundation
The London Suede
Morcheeba
Men at Work
Tom Petty
Travis
The The
Tears for Fears
Marvin Gaye
Supergrass
The Stone Roses (I rock that ion Guitar Hero!!!!!)
The Police
Sting
Stone Temple Pilots
Soviet
Social Distortian
Black Sabbath, Ozzy!!!!!
Smashing Pumpkins
Siousxie and the Banshees
Silversun Pickups
I could keep going and yes thats more than 20. Talking about music... I could do it all night long. I say lets go get coffee and plan to be up late listening to tunes.... thats how this conversation should be proceeded hehehe
Don't know a band on that list check it out. Most likely you'll like it! :-P Some are even christians on that list, but who wants to suck? LOLOLOL
Originally posted 17 months ago.
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The P is UNLEASHED edited this topic 17 months ago.
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I think a lot of the mainstream CCM is mediocre...now I know my taste may not be inline with all of you but there is some stuff I really like SuperChik, StorySide B, Britt Nicole, Addison Road...just some of the stuff I'm enjoying lately. It's still may not be perfect...but I personally do like to watch what I let in my head.
I still get lost in worship music...some of that stuff I shouldn't be allowed to listen to when I drive.
Posted 17 months ago.
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I do have to agree that the core of CCM is quite mediocre... and also agree that Sean P's list pretty much rocks (how dare I to disagree...).
I do think there are some CCM bands that bring it though...
- The Glorious Unseen
- David Crowder Band
- Mutemath
- Anberlin
- St. Tomlin & Matt Redman
are a few that I enjoy....
also being a youth pastor I am also listening to a lot of Thousand Foot Krutch, Relient K, and Family Force 5 with my teens.... much better than Linkin Park, Fall Out Boy, and lot of the other crap that's out there...
Also enjoy this dude but perhaps it's b/c he's my brother...
Posted 17 months ago.
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I have to admit... I like me some Mutemath... David Crowder.... I was listening to Colission the other day... Its good for CCM... not that good overall.
Posted 17 months ago.
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@holycow I agree about the letting things in my head, thats very true. Gotta watch what I play in my car now as well that I have kids that can understand lyrics and like to ask questions! But on the good side of that I have had to explain all kinds of Christian lyrics to them.
@russhutto I love Rich Mullins. He died in a plane wreck which is the seal of all great musicians.
And to whoever said Keith Green, I think he is amazing. I have read his bio, the one written by his wife. Its worth reading if you want to see what a life driven by passion for the Lord is all about. (once again- plane crash)
I like Jars of Clay and Sara Groves. I am a lyric lover.
I think the industry is to blame for the separation. Everything has to fit into some category. You sing more than a few songs where you reference God and someone tries to shove you in that direction, then you are called a sell-out and you have your own brothers and sisters saying you suck. How sad is that? All because you tried to sing about what you believe in hoping to share it.
Posted 17 months ago.
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I started to write a log spiel about why i think there's so much crap out there. Then I decided I wouldn't bore you all. Here are a few of my faves...
Brooke Fraser - Albertine
MuteMath
Dave Barnes
Derek Webb (especially if you tired of the same old themes)
Jon Foreman EPs - Fall, Winter, Spring, Summer
Marty Sampson - Let Love Rule
Phil Wickham
Robbie Seay Band
for worship stuff - Hillsong's latest few have been pretty great. We also dig some Tim Hughes
Posted 17 months ago.
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That's is one of the reasons I push for secular music in our service design...and alot of people push back.
I'm currently working on presenting an abstract dramatically choreogrpahed element with 'handlebars" by Flobot...
We'll see how that flies...
Posted 17 months ago.
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@beth, if I'm not mistaken Rich died in an automobile accident...Keith Green died in a plane crash.
Posted 17 months ago.
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Ah, you are right. Its been a while. Thanks for correcting me.
Posted 17 months ago.
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@enadsleinad - I love how you list Dave Barnes and Jon Foreman as Christian artists (at least I assume you are since that whole list is Christian). While Jon used to be a "Christian artist" he jumped the shark long ago to be a rock star (no diss intended, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't call himself a Christian artist.) And Dave, though the son of a Presbyterian minister and very spiritual in his themes, would not say he is in the "Christian talent pool" either. He is, however, the most awesome thing, in my opinion, since sliced bread!!
Adding my two cents to this argument (who asked, I know), but I have long said CCM is a rip off of what was popular 5 years ago. Notice that? The "in" style in CCM now was what was once popular in the secular market. It really is about numbers. Money numbers, that is. I heard a story from a friend of mine who had this on good authority that the last Tomlin record was recorded amidst the pleas of a secular exec who said "don't F this one up." I don't claim to know Chris' heart, but as far as the biz goes, it is just that: a biz.
Inspired songwriting is a whole other story. I hear some of this drivel and think "don't blame God for that one, please!! If he was speaking to you when you wrote this, you misheard Him!" And musically, every time I pop into iTunes for new music Tuesday, and see that another "Christian" band has released yet another EP (they all seem to be doing this these days), I am not surprised when it sounds like the same crap I heard last week. Crunchy guitars, G-C-D chord structure, and a loop. It's the "flavor of the month." But then as Sean has so lovingly pointed out...you put in Coldplay's new joint, and it is a spiritual experience. There are nods to U2 and Radiohead there, and my gosh...listen to how brilliant it is. And this is coming from someone who two weeks ago would have said "Coldplay? Ehhh...I guess if that's all you have to put on." Not a non-fan, but not ga ga for them...until the new record.
My whole rambling point being...the aforementioned Dave Barnes, who writes brilliantly and crafts gorgeous melodies, outshines almost anything on the current charts calling itself Christian. And while we're on that subject: isn't good, uplifting music just good uplifting music? Why do we have to label and market it to certain stations and bookstores? I don't' stop and ask "is Coldplay Christian?" I look at their work as a whole and ask "is it good music?" It's up to me lyrically what goes into my brain.
I just think inspired, quality musicianship wins over labels, over styles, over genres. CCM is in the toilet. Worship music is...ehhhh...getting better and better in some regards. Top 40 "secular" is in the toilet. Country is in the toilet. Let's look at real musicians who write lyrics, craft melodies, play their instruments themselves...and play them well, and who are passionate about doing what they do. Label that however you want, but to me, it's just about quality music at the end of the day.
Posted 17 months ago.
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So, I'm finding it funny how little I have to contribute to this conversation. Most of my listening pleasure falls in the realm of electronica, so I can't comment on much listed here.
I would guess the label "Christian" was applied by the record companies to appease a new growing market. They sold it constantly under the guise that if you didn't listen to it, you didn't really love Jesus. "Christan" music is really only "Christian" because its marketed to the "Christian" subculture.
For my money, you can't beat DC*B, Paul Meaney, or Jyro Xhan lyrically. Those guys can write like nobody's business. And my little boy always calms down to MuteMath's "OK" :)
Posted 17 months ago.
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Check out this song Healer. This guy Mike Guglielmucci wrote as he was battling cancer.
It's pretty amazing song. You want to talk about heart and passion. Amazing.
Posted 17 months ago.
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Great discussion, folks. I've got more to say on this but bottom line, Christian music is terrible; predictable, bland and out-of-touch with the people we are wanting to reach.
About the only guys I listed to is Tomlin, Crowder, Charlie Hall and the other Passion artists. Their latest Hymns CD is pretty incredible.
And of course the late great Rich Mullins. Most of his stuff still holds up pretty well. Here's a great piece on him - scroll to the bottom and read the story of him at the Dove awards...
www.kidbrothers.net/rmml/rmml189.html
Posted 17 months ago.
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A lot of hymns were popular bar tunes that Christians stole and wrote new lyrics to. =P
The beginning of Christian rip off culture!
Originally posted 17 months ago.
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7ulio.com edited this topic 17 months ago.
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@Juliet: just throwing out a different perspective here.
Many people pass along the "bar tune" stories as fact when most likely it's not necessarily the case.
Hymn writers like the Wesley brothers and Martin Luther are commonly attributed with taking christian lyrics and pasting them on top of tavern tunes. Which may not be the case.
Throughout the years many people have mistakenly confused "bar form" with "bar tunes." Bar form is a medieval structure of poetry and later music that follows a specific pattern (It comes from medieval germany). Most Lutheran Chorales are "bar form" chorales.
What probably actually happened is that hymn writers used popular tunes (the majority of them were probably sacred) to set their poetry to. So in essence, you don't have christian rip off of secular culture, you have the continuation of already popular christian music with new lyrics on top.
It would be like me rewriting a Chris Tomlin song with the same melody and chord structure but with entirely new lyrics.
How fake is that frog...sing with me...how fake...
Originally posted 17 months ago.
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Russ Hutto edited this topic 17 months ago.
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@russhutto
I've actually heard it said from our pulpit that Wesley and Luther used popular music to compose their songs. I need to research this stuff for myself, rather than blindly believing.
Thank you so much for the correction. It makes me happy.
Posted 17 months ago.
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Check out Thrice's new album, the "The Alchemy Index - Air and Earth." One of those tooth and nail bands that I never liked all that much but this is the most original "christian" music I've heard in a long time.
Seriously download the album from Itunes...every single song is amazing. The first six are the "Air" songs and sound like it. The second six are the "earth" songs, and sound like it, a nice folk, old school country sound. On the lyric side...very spiritual and story driven, folklore-ish. You can feel honesty all over the place.
I'm really picky about music and the only bands that I would put in the christian realm that I listen to are Thrice (Air and Earth), Anberlin, Mae and I do like Hillsong United (They have some awesome original worship songs and are really into art and music because they love it).
Posted 17 months ago.
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@ wrlds Thanks for mentioning that album. I just recently bought the entire Alchemy Index (Fire, Water, Air and Earth) and have been blown away. Very quality stuff. I was planning on posting it when I got back from lunch only to see you brought it up.
So I simply say amen.
Posted 17 months ago.
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@juliet and @russhutto,
good clarifications on wesley's and luther's use of Bar Form vs. bar songs for the basis of their hymn-writing.
fortunately, you're both sorta-right.
while the Wesley Bros. would never have used a tune from a bar, it's likely that Luther did. However, whether the original tunes came from a tavern or not is somewhat irrelevant, as Bar Form [loosely described as AAB, or AABA melodic singing] was the from used in the vast majority of tavern songs and "popular" music of both their contemporaries, and is the foundation for original blues and contemporary R&B.
So, while the tunes didn't necessarily come from a bar [in the case of the Wesleys], the songs intentionally sounded a lot like what was going on in there.
I don't have much else to add to the conversation, but I thought it was worth clarifying that mimicking [without outright copying] is certainly not new for CCM.
Posted 17 months ago.
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@rubberfish: good point. I guess the overall point though is that there is and always has been some degree of cross-pollination between secular and sacred music.
Fanny Crosby (the "Queen of hymn writers) and William Booth (founder of the Salvation Army) both used popular tunes for their hymns. Booth said that if "sinners" were drawn to the message of Salvation by popular tunes then it was a justifiable means. He is also credited with the saying "Why should the devil have all the good tunes (music)?"
Luther composed a large majority of his own tunes. He also used latin and german religious tunes and one of his tunes is taken from a secular popular song.
Again, the idea that he takes his tunes from secular popular songs is extremely exaggerated, yet he DOES indeed borrow tunes from religious popular tunes.
So that begs the question: is there a difference between borrowing inspiration from secular music and borrowing inspiration from sacred music?
Posted 16 months ago.
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search through myspace for christian bands/artists, there is so much fame and glamore that they are chasing. the promotion is sickening. for 90% of them its all about being the next big thing, being cool.
thats what makes me sick. i'm a musician and don't want to put my stuff in this category. i make music because i like music and i write from my heart and my inspiration is life and my Creator.
i play my songs at local secular places and churches. people like it or they don't. the point is to write for yourself and God.
It's too easy to get caught up in "I need to write so people get saved through my music" "if my music sounds cool enough or if my image is cool enough we'll steal people from secular music and save kids."
i happend to see hawk nelson (accidentally) at 6 flags and it was ridiculous. the lead singer is up there singing about this girl he likes cause she loves Jesus as he rips off his coat and has just a tie on underneath, so hes running around with no shirt on and a black tie and hundreds of teenage girls are going crazy. what?!
it's sad. mainly this reply is to bands like that, i know there are some really good mature christian bands out there. anyways...
Posted 16 months ago.
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Has any one seen "Danielson, A Family Movie" a documentary about Daniel Smith and his family's band? The movie was very inspiring for me (even though they talk about music) as an artist and how to interact with God in the creative process.
It's not your typical Christian music, he is kind of odd, but really good.
Posted 16 months ago.
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Just because it's relevant to my right now... and bad CCM...
The volunteer receptionist just came in and push on a John Tesh worship CD.
Ugh. Thank the Lord for my headphones and Coldplay on my iTunes.
Posted 16 months ago.
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Ok guys/gals,
go out and get the July/August issue of Collide Magazine and read Scott McClellan's article, Is Christian Music Dying? I think it pertains to this discussion and really Christians creating any kind of art. The rest of the magazine is good too.
Posted 16 months ago.
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Question: Are the Psalms bad poetry or good poetry?
Question: If some of the world's best artists, such as Coldplay or U2 (but there are others, of course), began recording songs that were simply their unique, creative brand of music applied to the lyrics of the Psalms?
Do you suppose it would not be long before such music was blackballed among secular radio stations? Of course! Because a nonChristian public does not want to hear lyrics that convict their conscience. It's really that simple.
Now I have nothing against writing lyrics that are more subtle or obscure in terms of the writer's worldview. I don't believe it's necessary for all Christian artists to be explicit about what they believe when it comes to the lyrics they write. However, for those who do want to be explicit or who want to write songs intended to be worshipful - is it really surprising that they would be culturally ghettoized so as to have to market separately?
In order to "play with the big boys" of the music industry, Christians are forced to hide or be subtle about their faith. So we should not be blaming the Christian market for its very existence; they exist because secular radio and CD producers and book sellers and whatnot refuse to publish explicitly Christian material. That's not exactly our fault, is it?
I am also going to add an angry note here, for not all anger in a Christian's heart is sinful. I am quite angry with Sean's dismissiveness toward the Holy Spirit. I made the point in my longer post earlier that the Spirit has often used old CCM to convict or inspire me. Who is Sean Patrick Salter to then come along and dismiss what God may be doing through what Sean Patrick Salter thinks "sucks"?
Posted 16 months ago.
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Now I have nothing against writing lyrics that are more subtle or obscure in terms of the writer's worldview. I don't believe it's necessary for all Christian artists to be explicit about what they believe when it comes to the lyrics they write. However, for those who do want to be explicit or who want to write songs intended to be worshipful - is it really surprising that they would be culturally ghettoized so as to have to market separately?
What we have here is a chicken and egg problem. You're first making a baseless assumption that U2 or Coldplay couldn't rip stuff from the Psalms and then not be able to be carried by major labels or radio stations. Bono himself has said on multiple occasions that his lyrics aren't the driving force of the music but rather it's The Edge's guitar work.
Second you're saying that "Christian" labels (and I use that term loosely) are all owned by the Big Four. That market didn't exist until they created it, with the specific purpose of profiting from a large and growing Christian consumerist population in the US.
David Crowder* Band has consistently been ranked very high in online and brick-n-morter channels as well as being rated very high by several secular reviewers. They're proof that you can be overtly Christian while still being noticed by the public. You simply have to be good. (though not always, there's lots of junk being peddled by the labels that is secular...they just find or create other markets like the Tween/Myley Cyrus generation.)
This entire argument can even be sidestepped by going at it from the opinion that CCM has little artistic merit and in many ways simply doesn't stack up against secular music. Not always the case of course, there's tons of secular Crap(TM) pop music out there too. The problem I have is that somewhere in the neighborhood of 85% of all bands signed to Word, Sparrow or Tooth & Nail sound about 12-18 months behind said Crap(TM) pop music. They're whoring themselves out to unoriginal, already-out-of-date musical styles while writing uninventive, repetitive and cliché'd lyrics simply to sell albums and tickets to a population who firmly believes that everything else is Devil Music. I've yet to find a Christian band singing some of the negative Psalms that wonder exactly where God is when tragedy strikes, why he has "forsaken" us etc.
I'll paraphrase Rob Bell who said that Christian persecution is when you're ideas are dangerous to existing powers, people who are afraid of losing that power strike out in violence and opression. You're not being persecuted when you're annoying and indignant.
I won't discount your experiences because God does indeed use anything he wants to get his point across.
Posted 16 months ago.
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