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[Closed (Time out)] Your Vision of Explore in the Future
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Good Morning Folks,
The Explore issue may seem like a greatly over-talked issue, but it is important to all of us. Why? Because Explore is a vehicle used by Flickr to communicate to the world at large about the types of "interesting" photographs found within the Flickr community. The visual image has played a pivotal role in the history of nations worldwide. Photography is a powerful tool for creating images that reflect the world we live in. That is why I have taken an interest in the whole Explore issue.
The debate within the Flickr community over Explore, its purpose, and rules has been around for sometime. It has been rekindled in recent weeks, as many of you know.
Please click here: www.flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/98122/#reply642197
If this is true, how can Explore be improved in the future. Describe your "vision" of what Explore should be like in the future. I am less interested in the specific changes to make, and more interested in the general direction of any future changes.
Here are some starting options to prompt your thinking:
1. Keep its purpose and structure exactly the same with no changes.
2. Keep the basic purpose and structure the same, but tweak it to deal with key issues to which everyone agrees.
3. Undertake a radical overall of Explore with major changes to its purpose and structure.
4. Leave Explore alone as the "Interestingness Program" and create a new program that focuses on "Photographic Quality."
5. Eliminate Explore entirely.
I realize you may see other options as well and would enjoy hearing about them.
For those having a hard time PICTURING the Explore situation, please click here: www.flickr.com/photos/don-iannone/3599156436/
This is intended as a constructive sharing exercise for all of us. This is not about me saying I like or dislike particular views. I will not do that here in this thread.
Thank you so much.
Originally posted at 5:31AM, 6 June 2009 PDT
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Brock (a group admin) edited this topic 36 months ago.
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(201 to 300 of 451 replies in [Closed (Time out)] Your Vision of Explore in the Future)
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Yes, and that I would call over-exposure (the white blob). The correct exposure isn't done by the camera.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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peter_hasselbom edited this topic 36 months ago.
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I didn't know we were allowed to comment on photos in explore...Wow, you learn something everyday.
Seriously, here is an idea that kind of gets at what some of you seem to be pointing at:
1. Let's say that Flickr staff decides to go with a rank-less system with no positions. (I'm not saying it should, but let's assume that decision was made.)
2. What do you do instead? Nothing or something.
3. One idea is to classify photos in Explore. For example, Interesting examples of depth of field, interesting examples of unique perspective, etc. And yes, I am thinking about the technical feasibility of this idea? My initial reaction is it could be tough, but pattern recognition technology and lots of related stuff that could be looked at. Here is one source and there are tons out there: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_recognition
Why consider this classification approach? At least then folks would know what makes a photograph interesting.)
4. Let's say we developed a list of 25 attributes of this sort. What would they be?
5. If it passes the technical feasibility hurdle, how could it be implemented within explore? One way is to make Monday DOF day, and Tuesday unique perspective day, etc. A second approach could be to assign so many places each day in explore that illustrate one or more attributes. And yes, you could include a section that gives attention to photos illustrating more than one attribute.
6. You could also assign so many places in explore based upon subject matter: landscapes, portraits, animals and pets, flowers, etc.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Don Iannone edited this topic 36 months ago.
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I think it would great if they just binned it and added a button that took you to a really random photo. Instead of a stumble button. But they won't. The rotten gits.
Posted 36 months ago.
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Not wishing to get into specifics, but I guess I will. Exposing for the background than the subject seems to be pretty basic to me. There are times when that effect may be warrented. I did see one shot that was blurred; should I have kept quiet about that when i saw it on FP?
I am not trying to be fascist about it, but if folks don't want negative comments, even if they are constructive, they should say, or have the option of blocking everyone except their friends.
I do feel there are somethings that when uploaded should be pointed out; if that was the effect they wanted then fine, show's I know nothing.
I have stopped commenting on Explore shots unless I think they are exceptional; I see sometimes 10 a day that merit that.
If this comes over as being over critical or whatever, then sorry. But I do think I know when something is under-exposed or not.
Posted 36 months ago.
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As I said before, it seems Flickr is planning changes to the donkey. I'll wait to see what happens then.
Posted 36 months ago.
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Re, your most recent list of suggestions, Mr. Iannone:
Your notion of classifying photos through pattern recognition (or any process including editorial) so that people will understand why they are interesting is an overtly engineering approach to a non-engineering problem. As well, it assumes that we can know why people find something interesting by looking at the visual content of the picture.
People find a picture interesting for all kinds of reasons. Some of those are because of the style or quality of the photograph, other reasons are because of what is photographed.
For the most part interestingness and the magic donkey have attempted to sift out pictures based on the behavior of people (looking, faving, commenting, etcetera, as well as factoring previous user behavior in some way) rather than the content of the pictures.
The record of user behavior is an asset that Flickr has at their disposal to exploit, and can lead to many way of finding pictures.
This is why they call it “interestingness” rather than “awesomeness” or “quality.” It is an attempt to sort out pictures that people find interesting, not an attempt to figure out WHY people find them interesting.
That’s a whole separate problem.
It’s also up to the viewer.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Kevin Steele edited this topic 36 months ago.
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~ fernando [deleted] says:
jelltecks wrote If this comes over as being over critical or whatever, then sorry. But I do think I know when something is under-exposed or not. I think the point is not what you know about photography and how you like it to be, but that a so-called critical comment may not be a feedback, because you may not know the intent of the photographer. This is not a cop out on "art is subjective" -- but that I find that critique on the basis of "rules of photography" is absurd.
Unfortunately, in general, I do not see a critique of a photo in flickr that is worded to consider an artistic expression on that very point by the actual photographer. It has more of that feeling that people usually complain about calling their IT department. :)
But yes... critique away and have your fun on flickr... and people react as they will. It will all balance in the end.
(as to the topic... there was a suggestion about Explore considering critiques... and that is just as fraught with problems as an algorithm that determines image quality!)
Posted 36 months ago.
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Kevin,
Thanks. Good points you make.
And, Don please. Let's save Mr. Iannone when I celebrate my 90th birthday. LOL.
Trust me, I don't want to make this any harder than it needs to be. I doubt anyone else does either.
My thoughts were only examples of changes that might be made to explore in lieu of its current organization. Personally, I would like to see what might be possible in introducing some type of categorization into explore in the future. Right now, it seems a stream of consciousness.
To your point about ascertaining interest based a photograph's visual content, maybe there is something Flickr could learn from the city planning and architecture fields where visual preference surveys are both quite common and effective. Perhaps Flickr staff has already considered this possibility since it does view Flickr as a "community," or better yet a "community of communities."
Here is another idea. What if explore could be configured by individual users and viewers, allowing them to view explore in different ways. A very good search capability seems needed for this, as well as other things that the techies would know. You could start with 4 or 5 ways they could search and organize the explore stream to suit their interest. Let them even do individual rankings based upon how they would weight the criteria. I could even imagine the combining of sort choices.
One final idea to throw in. What if all the groups were given the tools to create their own "mini-explores" based upon the content in their group. Maybe they could even be permitted to set their own criteria. And if they wanted to venture in the "quality evaluation waters, let them.
Posted 36 months ago.
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~ fernando [deleted] says:
Well, if there is gaming going on with Explore, at least it is free (monetarily speaking). Not such luck if you are in the music business, and need to game iTunes' version of Explore.
Posted 36 months ago.
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"I am not trying to be fascist about it, but if folks don't want negative comments, even if they are constructive, they should say, or have the option of blocking everyone except their friends."
If I upload something it's either because I'm happy with it the way it is, or I lack the time to do anything about it and have decided to stick with what I've got. If I want photography lessons I'll do a course. So post constructive criticism if you want. I'll either agree or respond with withering sarcasm.
My harshest critic is me, six months after I post something. Stone me, my past self has posted some crap :-)
Posted 36 months ago.
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Wow, I've been so busy with work, etc., that I missed out on the initial blow-up over Explore. It DOES explain a lot, though. . . My husband an I commented just the other day that the images making fp lately were extremely disappointing lately. A lot of subpar (or even shoddy) work showing up again and again and again. . . We wondered what was going on.
Now I find out that there is a group of individuals who have discovered a way to circumvent the system and get these questionable images onto Explore fp. Wow, who would have figured? I mean, isn't there always some group, somewhere, finding a way around the rules? Why should Flickr be any different?
I'll tell you why. . . because we, as artists, are here because it is what we LOVE to do. Our photography and related work is a passion for us. We do not do it for recognition and fame. We do what we do because it brings us joy. If, in turn, that brings joy to others, then that's wonderful. So, why, WHY would anyone go out of their way in order to promote themselves and their friends? Perhaps they are not true artists, but merely acclaim-seekers. Perhaps they are worried their work won't stand up against the work of others without providing themselves with a handicap. . .
Rather than feeling anger toward these individuals, I simply feel pity for them. They must be extremely insecure in their own talents to skew the Explore results this way. . .
Posted 36 months ago.
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Ejaculating unicorns.
Posted 36 months ago.
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predominantly my photos
Posted 36 months ago.
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Your Vision of Explore in the pasture.
Posted 36 months ago.
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When I first studied photography many moons ago, I was taught, beyond technical mastery, to give primacy to the viewer's perspective, especially if I intended to capture the viewer's interest with my pictures. In that sense, does your photograph open the viewer’s eyes (mind) to new thoughts, ideas and feelings? Beyond that, does your photograph help the viewer see the world in a way he or she may not have seen it before? Does it add anything new?
I share this because Flickr created Explore for viewers, which I believe was the right first consideration then, and I think it should be in the future as we move forward.
For me, in reading the various comments made in this thread, keeping the viewer as my first consideration is my most valuable personal take anything away from this thread. Call it "viewer-centric" photography if you will...
Posted 36 months ago.
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~ fernando [deleted] says:
Don Iannone wrote Call it "viewer-centric" photography if you will... This could be an approach, and it may be the most beneficial for flickr's business. This would also imply that there is no showcase for anything that does not deviate from the cliché photos that a majority of the people like. It is like "Hollywoodizing" photography for the sake of maximum return.
The intersection of all tastes has to be something extremely boring, which is what "viewer centric" means to me, since there is no editorial content to advance anything. Given all the religions/cultures/countries that would look at FP... we are stuck with kittens, sunsets, HDR, bright photographs. Oh wait, we are already there.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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~ fernando edited this topic 36 months ago.
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I'm doing what I can to help Save Explore!
www.flickr.com/groups/1104161@N24/
Save Explore!!!!
Posted 36 months ago.
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WAW@48 [deleted] says:
Why would ya wanna save it, in its present state its a joke.
Posted 36 months ago.
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Don...what would your reaction be to comments made above by Gettysgirl as an example?
Posted 36 months ago.
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Fernando, You know what? I put my stuff out there everyday. I shoot everyday and I put one shot up on flickr I think folks might find interesting. And guess what, generally they do. So in that sense, I try to be viewer-centric. That is my goal for the future. So why are you here?
I honestly believe that an explore type program should be just that --viewer-centric. My guess is that flickr/yahoo believes the same thing. This is what we have now, and this is what I think we should be aiming at in the future.
By the way, I find nothing wrong with things being good for flickr's business, your business, or my business. All of us just need to be cool enough to abide by the rules that govern our memberships here on flickr.
Peter Bowers, you get no answer to your question from me because you never responded or acknowledged my response to your earlier question.
Posted 36 months ago.
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Explore started out as v ery viewer centric, but as it has been taken over by people gaming the system with subpar photos, it's not viewer centric anymore.
Explore used to be a great place to look for the best of Flickr, but now it's largely a showcase for the obsessed.
Which is why we must Save Explore!
www.flickr.com/groups/1104161@N24/
Posted 36 months ago.
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Jakerome, I may be wrong about this but when I read Heather's statement some days ago, it is not a matter that one or a few groups have gamed the system so to speak. Rather, they and several other people have figured out the magic donkey's secret recipe.
I think MANY people here in the Flickr community know how explore works. If someone does not, they should head on over to Wink's Group and read the discussion where several of us discuss our ideas in this regard. And so,now the rules will be changed by Flickr, or maybe the donkey will be sent to the glue factory and something new will occupy our attention. Now that will be a great photo op.
I hope explore in the future is as you describe -- viewer-centric. I agree with you that explore (in a revised form) is worth saving.
Posted 36 months ago.
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~ fernando [deleted] says:
billy w wrote Why would ya wanna save it, in its present state its a joke. cuz nobody kills their ugly child... remember Rosemary's Baby?
Posted 36 months ago.
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~ fernando [deleted] says:
Don Iannone wrote I put one shot up on flickr I think folks might find interesting. I am here to upload photos that I find interesting, without concern for what people may find interesting. On occasions, there is a comment or two, without any platitudes, per photo that engages in a conversation -- not sure if the photo is interesting(*) -- and that is the part of the site I like. The site also works in other ways that helps with photographic discipline (i.e., finish the photo and sort the crap out... and revisit the good and crap later, mainly, because there is nobody to impress).
So, I am not being viewer-centric, at least in the way that would be expected by the viewer.
Don Iannone wrote I honestly believe that an explore type program should be just that --viewer-centric. My guess is that flickr/yahoo believes the same thing. This is what we have now, and this is what I think we should be aiming at in the future. Yes, absolutely... that is flickr's choice, and I still pay for my subscription. I would like the option to opt-out of being Explored, without having to strip out my EXIF data, or just post my film work.
Since the algorithm cannot discern any sense of quality but to rely on the assumption that there is a (high) correlation between the views, faves and speed at which they are granted, then Explore is more precisely a viewer social-centric: it detects a behaviour about a photo based on how people on flickr behave. Such behaviour then has something that a sampled population of flickr likes (since the gaming groups, to a large degree, are still a representative sample of the wider flickr population).
This magnification of flickr member's behaviour is why I really do not have any objection to the gaming by key groups(**) because these are just hyper-active subscribers of flickr, which are doing what others just do in a less organized way. The quality of photos remains about the same throughout the 500, just that we can remember the bad better than the good. However, something that shows more of the gamut of photos uploaded to flickr, without any illusions of quality, would better serve the site, and indeed be more viewer-centric.
(*)unfortunately, the panda does find something more interesting than expected... to an absurd ratio. I showed the panda, though, by making the photos non-public.
(**) I guess it was Happy Bokeh Wednesday that showed the way to how to "game" Explore, but there is no gaming, it is more to do of how to magnify the behaviour that already exists on flickr. Nobody blames HBW for beating down HDR out of Explore, and showing the way to how social-commenting-on-steroids can get you to Front Page.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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~ fernando edited this topic 36 months ago.
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"I shoot everyday and I put one shot up on flickr I think folks might find interesting"
Why not more than one? If I take ten pictures in a day I think people will like, I put them all up on Flickr. It seems silly to do otherwise.
(Of course there are the strange people who post several pictures a day, but then change the uploaded date on all but one so that the majority of them are hidden further back in their stream. But then post views of them in the comments so that we can see them all. Why not just leave them at the top of their stream?)
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Kaptain Kobold edited this topic 36 months ago.
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@jakerome
Explore used to be a great place to look for the best of Flickr, but now it's largely a showcase for the obsessed.
Which is why we must Save Explore!
I cannot see the logics in your conclusion, Jake. When it's true, that it became so bad (which is a point of view, on which I really agree with you), why do we have to save it then?
So I think, that you're just having fun, founding this group... and it's tongue in cheek.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Silanov edited this topic 36 months ago.
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I did not found that group! But I do think it's VITAL that we all work together to SAVE EXPLORE exactly as it is!
Posted 36 months ago.
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"But I do think it's VITAL that we all work together to SAVE EXPLORE exactly as it is! "
If only as a warning to future generations :-)
Posted 36 months ago.
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Hi Don
I'm sorry that I didn't respond to your earlier post.
Thanks for your kind comments, and I agree that Toronto is a very nice city (in most respects). If you get a chance to go there I also recommend Ottawa. And yes I agree that the D700 is a fabulous camera--certainly the best that I've owned--but I do notice that the final images really look no different than the good old D70!
I didn't respond to those topics earlier because I felt that they were off topic in an already long thread, but I realise now that I should have responded in some way as a courtesy to you.
With regard to the groups in question I must respectfully disagree with you in one regard: these groups differ from other Flickr groups in that they dominate Explore.
About Heather's comments...I imagine that she is as tired of hearing complaints about Explore as I am about reading them...but one really must wonder why Flickr have let the situation last as long as they have?
In closing I think that you're being quite courageous in engaging all comers in this post, especially since you are someone who benefits from the groups that we're discussing.
Posted 36 months ago.
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Fernando,
Thank you. I appreciate the thoughtful and interesting response, which by and large I agree with. Where we differ is with the use of the terms "gaming" and "gamers." To me and many others. they are pejorative.
I'm still thinking about your term "viewer social-centric." I read and I think I understand what you are saying. When I use the term "viewer-centric," it refers to both a personal/individual viewing audience and a social viewing audience. The second audience (the social) can be best understood here in the Flickr community as posting to and viewing in groups of any type. Also, something as simple as adding a tag to a photograph can make it social in the sense that folks can search by a tag name and create a group of photos sharing that tag.
One final point: Whenever we choose to make our photographs "public," they enter the "social realm" within Flickr and beyond Flickr (if we open them to public searches and use tags).
Posted 36 months ago.
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Kaptain Kobold,
Posting one public photo (and on occasion two) is a personal preference, but it also has the benefit that is does not overload my contacts and other viewers' eyeballs.
I don't care how many pictures people upload, but generally I have time to only view one or two of their pictures. I have posted large public sets in the past and found that no more than a couple of the photos were viewed. So now if I want to post a large set, I make the vast majority of them private for my viewing or close friends and family.
Posted 36 months ago.
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Hi Don
This is an interesting topic, I just have a few things I have observed by looking at about 3000 Explored pictures a week.
1. Post one picture a day
2.Leave your footprint on others work "good feedback"
3.Be thankful for views you get
If your work has any merit at all you will hit Explore if you do those things.
For me I like to post at least 3 at a time because I like the tri pictures and I know it limits some good pictures from getting listed on Explore, But I do this for me and people that want to look at my pictures not Explore. My ego likes Explore but...
Also I learn more by looking at other peoples work then the comments I get.
Direction I would like to See it go:
1. I would like to see more of a collective display at first
2. Not let Group entry limit Explore Expousure
3. I like the top cam format Daily, Weekly, Monthly, Yearly Etc
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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marklessard edited this topic 36 months ago.
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Peter,
Thank you so much.
Ottawa is a great suggestion and I have not done much photography there. Thank you. Any specific photo ops you would suggest?
I appreciate your reasons for not responding to the Explore related points and agree that Flickr staff must be sick and tired of all the hoopla.
I actually believe that the debate can strengthen us as a community, if we use it as a learning opportunity and exercise civility in how we participate in it. As I said before, I hope and pray it does not further divide us and cause the loss of friendships.
There are two interrelated dimensions to the Explore debate as I see it. The first is the obvious, which relates to which photographs make it into Explore, how they get there, and how people (including the poster) react to to these dynamics.
The second dimension has to do with the personal and social meaning attached to Explore by both those who love it and those who hate it. Some see making Explore as a validation of their photographic ability and performance. Some see making Explore as a form of appreciation and recognition that others find their work to be "interesting." Some see making Explore as being insignificant. There is another side. There are some who do not make Explore and take it as a sign of their poor photographic ability and performance. Some who do not make Explore see it as excluding them from enjoying something that they want and did not receive. Some who do not make Explore see a conspiracy accounting for why others made Explore and they did not. There are many possibilities going beyond my list.
Knowing many of the photographers belonging to the criticized groups, I can say there are some that intend to make Explore and others who could care less if they make it. If you look at this thread: www.flickr.com/photos/don-iannone/3599156436/ you will see that many of my contacts do not think much of Explore at all. I interact with my contacts on a daily basis regardless of their views about Explore.
Finally, you asked earlier about my reaction to GettysGirl's comments. I think she is right that artists must have passion and those who have it will persevere in the face of rejection, criticism and inattention by others. It's tough being an artist. Many photographers I know, including some that are amazingly creative, do not see themselves as artists. They like the technical aspects of photography and some just take joy in taking interesting and quality pictures. More and more artists that I know are actively promoting themselves for recognition and money. I look at the increased use of websites and web marketing by artists of all types as one illustration of this. Another is the presence of so many artists at various art fairs and festivals. Hope this helps. Sorry for being so long winded.
Posted 36 months ago.
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Mark,
Great suggestions.
As for the rules for making Explore, these are common ones pointed to, along with those on Wink's Place's discussion section.
You said: "Direction I would like to See it go:
1. I would like to see more of a collective display at first
2. Not let Group entry limit Explore Expousure
3. I like the top cam format Daily, Weekly, Monthly, Yearly Etc"
Good ideas. Can you say more about the collective display idea and he top cam idea? Might be some things here that Flickr should be looking at. Thanks!
Posted 36 months ago.
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I want to apologize for all the posts this morning, but I was just trying to respond to others asking me for reactions, etc. Gotta go...
Posted 36 months ago.
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Collective: I like the Randomization Idea that "Now and Here" put forth. I'm not sure there is a practical way to do that because of human nature, The first and last page of the newspaper get the most expousure, Like being first in the phonebook. However more frequent movement of position would help or a rotation could, And where this is a global community the time of day for the rotation would have less impact.
I'd like to see a daily Hot list Top 500 views or whatever but have it be a true snapshot of that day not a changing snapshot like it seems to be now unless you hit number 1. I know that big networks will still get the top spots but that is human nature. The best of the best are not always the stars.
Also have a Weekly, Monthly, Yearly and All-time
My one pet peve with the system is notification of Explored pictures. Flickr should do that. Timestamp or tag I like the tag because it would make it easy to search by day etc.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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marklessard edited this topic 36 months ago.
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"Posting one public photo (and on occasion two) is a personal preference, but it also has the benefit that is does not overload my contacts and other viewers' eyeballs."
I usually find that my enough of my contacts take the time to view everything I post each day*, whether it be one picture or twenty, to make it not worth worrying about how many I post. So I post everything I think people might like, without worrying about overloading their eyeballs. And even if a picture gets no views on the day I post it, it will still get views eventually; I have no pictures with zero views, that I've found yet. Someone, sometime, may find it of interest.
But obviously people use Flickr in different ways, and that's probably reflected in our respective contacts. I can certainly see situations where someone might want to concentrate all of their contacts' activity on one picture per day, especially if their contacts visit a lot of streams and thus only have a limited time to spend at each one. Certainly I've seen a lot of these 'one photo a day' streams recently, so it's obviously caught on as a strategy.
*Leastways the pictures get views. Maybe it's not contacts viewing them; 50% of my photostream hits come from outside of Flickr.
Posted 36 months ago.
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~ fernando [deleted] says:
Don Iannone wrote Where we differ is with the use of the terms "gaming" and "gamers." To me and many others. they are pejorative. Sorry Don, but I am not aware of the localized changes of meaning because of insults and/or what a limited group of people in a group decide to be sensitive in name-calling. "Gaming the system" is a perfectly neutral term in discussing an algorithm, and it does not imply a negative term -- more so because to me, there is nothing wrong with tilting the odds in one's favor for Explore. Actively, or passively, gaming Explore is not something that I can discern, and therefore, it is an area that I do not get into because it relates to something that I do not know about an individual.
However, I can attribute it to a group/pool if I see that they over-dominate the number of photos on Explore, with a very small number of members in the group: this is just such a statistical anomaly, which cannot be overlooked. Still, I can talk about the aggregate behaviour of the group, without assuming that any member that I "meet" from those group is gaming the system. That is not stereotyping, and here I am not doing such a thing. Let me know of approved terms :)
On the funny side, the idea of gaming has only a meaning if there is a reward. The reward is attributing a sense of image quality or honor to an algorithm by a subset of flickr users. I presume this is an unforeseen aspect in the design of Explore. Remove, although impossible, this attribute or naïveté... and quite a few of these conversations go away.
I absolutely agree that in uploading, I am allowing some kind of social action on my photos, more so when I put it on a map, and add tags (which I do). Just in the same way that I can control my social interaction through block and delete, I would like to opt-out of some activity in my photos. Some of them are unreasonable to suggest -- flickr is not here to make custom sharing that way -- but since removing EXIF data, or uploading film, tends to avoid Explore, it seems an easy feature to implement.
The second audience (the social) can be best understood here in the Flickr community as posting to and viewing in groups of any type.
It can... but I merely focus it on the one that "excite" a positive response from the Explore algorithm. There are many social activities on flickr, like chatting in this group's discussions, but they do not influence a photo's statistics. Since Explore does not satisfy, apparently, a vocal majority, then it is not viewer-centric. It only appeals to those that don't know how it works, or understand that it is a merit system, or those that are actively seeking a reward through its viewer social-centric attributions to a photo. It is not viewer-centric if it has so many flaws: the selection process would have to be changed.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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~ fernando edited this topic 36 months ago.
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Knowing many of the photographers belonging to the criticized groups, I can say there are some that intend to make Explore and others who could care less if they make it. If you look at this thread: www.flickr.com/photos/don-iannone/3599156436/ you will see that many of my contacts do not think much of Explore at all. I interact with my contacts on a daily basis regardless of their views about Explore.
Sorry Don, but reading this I started to make some inquiries to prove the words of your contacts.
So I checked the photostreams of those, who said, that they don't think much about Explore. All of them always mention the exact Explore date beneath every single one of their Explored shots. Nearly all of them do also have an Explore album in their photostream and do frequently make Scout posters of their Explored pictures. And some do even add screenshots of their FP pics to their stream.
Well, actions speak louder than words... And to be true, I do not believe anybody, who tells me that she or he doesn't care much about Explore resp. doesn't think at all of it, whilst at the same time spends so much time in documenting her or his Explore appearances! That's simply illogical and doesn't go well together.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Silanov edited this topic 36 months ago.
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Fernando and Peter Silanov: Thank you both. I appreciate the additional thoughts you've shared.
Peter, you and I just disagree, and that is fine with me. Like I said, I interact with my contacts whether they eat, sleep and drink Explore or not.
Fernando, trust me the term gamer IS seen negatively by the folks you refer to in the criticized groups. More later on some of the other issues.
Thanks again to both of you.
Posted 36 months ago.
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Kaptain Kobold: Yes you are right it is a matter of personal preference. I suspect I will continue to post one a day (like the vitamin) and maybe two sometimes with or without Explore. Thanks for your thoughts.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Don Iannone edited this topic 36 months ago.
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I just had an Idea on the collective display, What if it was kind of like your contact display but constantly blinking with random pictures of interest. maybe a block of thumbnails 15 by 15 or something like that. When you click on one it pops up in a new tab or window
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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marklessard edited this topic 36 months ago.
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Flickr should try things like this, www.flickr.com/groups/flickrideas/discuss/72157618737650664/ with Explore.
Posted 36 months ago.
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Think I'd like to see interesting shots nearer to me, is there a way of tieing in with the the map to get interesting shots radiating from a set location?
Posted 36 months ago.
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Yeah, just go to the map, adjust the size appropriately, and then click on "most interesting."
Posted 36 months ago.
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Regarding the issue of private "fave" groups designed to get their members into Explore, I see an easy solution to this. Change things so that there are no private groups on flickr. All existing private groups become public groups. I think that having private groups goes completely against the stated concept of flickr being a photo sharing site anyway. If groups cannot be private, then any time an explore group is created, other people will be able to join and post, thus defeating the ability of the group to let certain users dominate explore.
Posted 36 months ago.
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~ fernando [deleted] says:
t74bdg89 (Justin Smith) wrote All existing private groups become public groups. baby... bathwater toss.
I think that is a very high price to pay for the crap that is Explore. Just because some people are obsessed, and value Explore beyond its intent, I would not go ahead and make all private groups public.
t74bdg89 (Justin Smith) wrote I think that having private groups goes completely against the stated concept of flickr being a photo sharing site anyway. Be that as you see it, if I upload private photos and share it with my family, I am still within the intent of a sharing use of flickr. The same, I can set up a private group for local friends and we share photos via the group, that otherwise can be marked private. That is a good flexibility to have that need not be compromised by consequences of Explore changes due to whatever-it-is-that-cannot-be-called-gaming.
Posted 36 months ago.
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A moderate explore
Posted 36 months ago.
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t74bdg89 (Justin Smith): there are some public groups that require you to ask permission to join... do you want to change this as well?
I think both private groups and private that require acceptance are good in creating your own space within flickr - as ~fernando said.
Posted 36 months ago.
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More lumber for the fire: www.flickr.com/photos/don-iannone/3636620557/ (See the link to the study referenced). Interesting stuff.
I would like to see more "real" research on the Flickr community. It might raise everyone's vision of both Explore and Flickr to a higher level.
I would welcome links and references to such research, if you have them. But please, no links to short-term "pipe" snapshots of which groups make Explore. Thank you.
Posted 36 months ago.
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: Could you post the link here for those of us to lazy to go to your picture and read the description? Thanks.
I agree with you about that group pipe things. The results make uncomfortable reading. Of course, it's a snapshot, but you can assemble lots of snapshots into a bigger picture. And sometimes what you see is a bigger version of the snapshot.
Posted 36 months ago.
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Pimp pimp pimpley pimp.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Ben Cooper edited this topic 36 months ago.
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Don,
What we anti-explore protesters have done is raise the issue to the wider Flckr community, and many people, not members of those certain groups, are shocked and angry of what they and we see as gaming.
Defenders of the staus quo, those who are FP regulars talk about the hard work getting to FP has been, looking, commenting, fav-ing hundreds and hundreds of shots.
Flickr should not be hard work, unless for those in the Flickr head office, I love Flickr, and it has inspired me, many shots from those groups and members have inspired me and I hope that inspiration keeps on coming.
You can call it one thing, we call it gaming, it's not about photographic excellence, it's about contacts and how many of them comment back.
We have been accused of being cruel and nasty and now childish and wingeing; different strokes, I guess. The difference between a critical comment and being just plain cruel is a fine one, and photographic excellence is a person choice and subjective. If people find such comments offensive then maybe a request for only positive comments to be added.
We can all learn something new, I like to think that photography is a journey of discovery and that there is always time to be taught or to learn.
I would like to thank you for the step you took of unblocking some of us, I hope no one has abused that, and I looked through some of your earlier pictures and found much to like there.
What I do feel is that while Explore is even partly dependant on peoples comments, it will be possible to game it, and therefore Explore is pretty redundant. When the new donkey is wheeled out, we shall see what the new Panda throws out.
Posted 36 months ago.
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"What I do feel is that while Explore is even partly dependant on peoples comments, it will be possible to game it,"
A comment that says "This picture is awful" is of equal value to a comment that says "This picture is great", as far as Explore is concerned. Of course, if a picture attracts 200 comments that all say it's awful, it will still be 'interesting' and therefore deserving of the Donkey's attention.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Kaptain Kobold edited this topic 36 months ago.
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I've taken a picture which, I think, sums up perfectly my views on Explore:
www.flickr.com/photos/cycleologist/3638545506/
Please visit my photostream. Please. i don't feel complete without your virtual eyeballs ogling me - you make me real.
Posted 36 months ago.
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: I have posted my response to Ben's comment here:
www.flickr.com/photos/kaptainkobold/215248821/
:-)
Posted 36 months ago.
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Don - Your link just seems to support the fact that most of the activity on flickr is reciprocal. Fine, so what.
My objection is not that people engage in reciprocal commenting etc. It is that I don't want to be continually told about it by interestingness and the Top 500. This seems to be flickr's view about it as well, hence Heather's comment about the donkey being old and tired and the fact they have taken no action over the groups to which you belong.
Other people seem angy that the reciprocal nature of flickr has been exploited by a very, very small minority of users and that small minority seem intenet to rub it everybody elses face. (Also the photo you linked to appears to be flagged as a photo when its not, you might want to change that.)
Posted 36 months ago.
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Just in case anybody would love to read my profile but is too shy to click on my icon, here's the link:
www.flickr.com/people/30888227@N08/
Why shouldn't we others also be allowed to pimp our statistics? :-))
PS: I really do say some very, very important things there! ;-)
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Silanov edited this topic 36 months ago.
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: Peter, a fascinating link. I'm glad you posted it.
Of course I would have to respond with this:
www.flickr.com/photos/kaptainkobold/33623041/
Posted 36 months ago.
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Ben, It wasn't a pimp. By visiting the actual post, folks can read my message that went with the link. I did visit your image and it made me laugh. Maybe I'll go back and fave it.
KK: Here you go: arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0802/0802.2317.pdf.
My point about the pipe snapshots is that it is a very limited view of what's going on. I would like to see some "serious" research done without the polemics. I served up the study link because it speaks about the larger context in which Explore exists and it provides a useful set of insights into how Flickr works. I found it "interesting." And I asked a serious question: If anyone knows of other serious research on Explore, I would like to know about it and read it.
Jelltecks: Thanks for sharing your points of view. I've read them carefully and there is some wisdom there. There is a wonderful movement in the organization development field (where I spend most of my day) called appreciative inquiry (AI), to which I subscribe. Here is one link to learn more about it: appreciativeinquiry.case.edu/intro/whatisai.cfm (I'm not pimping Case Western Reserve University though I did spend some time there, and I think David Cooperrider has made one of the most important contributions to the field of management and organization behavior of anyone out there in the past 25 years.)
The essence of appreciative inquiry is this: Start by finding what works in an organization and use that as a basis for change and development and not what doesn't work. Earlier training in the field focused almost exclusively on finding problems and fixing them. AI approaches change from an appreciative perspective (hey and that is even consistent with art and photography), rather than a critical/negative one. People respond to positive stimuli much better than negative ones.
Honestly, an AI approach to strengthening Flickr strikes me as the way to go. Hopefully Flickr staff is listening.
As to the "FP regulars" to which you refer, I know many of these folks and I'm not sure I would categorize them as all being the same. Most, I would agree, like seeing their pictures in Explore, but underneath those images are very different people. I try to appreciate each for who they are.
Posted 36 months ago.
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oh, Don, come on - how many times have you linked to your photos in this discussion? At least half a dozen ;-)
Posted 36 months ago.
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Could we probably agree on just one common denominator, which unifies most of those people, Don?
That would be their grotesque craving for recognition... :-)
Posted 36 months ago.
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Fletch, Thanks. I think the reciprocal aspect of the community is its heart, and that is why I think the study is important to read both in the context of improving Explore in particular and the Flickr community in general. I would be disappointed if the reciprocal nature of the community was destroyed.
I might add, there are many agenda supported/furthered by reciprocity across the Flickr community, and not just getting your pictures in Explore. Everyone should be concerned about killing the goose that lays this golden reciprocity egg. Hum...maybe we replace the stubborn donkey with a goose that lays golden eggs.
In any case, I think more of an appreciative inquiry (AI) approach to development and change should be followed rather than the old school approach that intimidates folks and causes them to lose self-respect.
Posted 36 months ago.
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"I would be disappointed if the reciprocal nature of the community was destroyed. "
If Explore was totally removed tomorrow, there would still be nothing to stop people commenting on and favouriting the pictures of their friends and contacts just as they have done today, and every day before that.
Despite that I'd lay serious money that we'd see a drop in such activity, though.
Posted 36 months ago.
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Ben, I believe the only ones I have linked to were posts that relate to the discussion at hand, including a couple humorous ones. You will believe what you want to believe. In the meantime, check out this: appreciativeinquiry.case.edu/intro/whatisai.cfm
Peter (Silanov): Absolutely we can...if we include everyone posting to this group, your EGO group, and any other group. LOL.
Posted 36 months ago.
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Probably we should replace the donkey by two geese laying golden eggs in a golden garden. Remember: The friendship of those geese will make the difference! Wink, wink... :-)
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Silanov edited this topic 36 months ago.
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Don - and yes, that's where you're cleverer than the average photo pimp - however, if the discussion were foremost in your mind you'd put your opinions entirely in this discussion, not put them in your photostream and link to them, conveniently increasing your view count in the meantime.
Posted 36 months ago.
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I would be disappointed if the reciprocal nature of the community was destroyed.
If the comunity is genuinely reciprocal and not just because of the selfish desire to see ones own pics displayed as the "Top 500" then it will survive whatever flickr choose to do to explore. If however a large portion of the reciprocal activity is not genuine and only exists due to desire to see ones pics in Explore then I would argue its not worth trying to preserve.
I suspect there is a large amount of genuine reciprocal activity which will remain what ever happens. However there is also a very large amount of activity generated by a very small number of people for which its sole motivation is to trick an aged donkey. It is this activity I belive threatens to ruin a very usefull feature of this site, interestingness, and this is why I'm delighted flickr are going to change Explore, despite your protestations.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Flet©h edited this topic 36 months ago.
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Caledonia Girl: Now that is what I would call "appreciative inquiry!" LOL.
KK: Playing out different scenarios, I suspect either Flickr itself or members would invent something to replace it with. Maybe we would even embark on the journey toward appreciation of photography and its amazing contributions to the world.
Posted 36 months ago.
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Don,
Most of the Explore threads and in large parts this one are all about EGO.
The main beef with a lot of Flickrites is the fact they are not featured when they believe their image is “good enough” to be “Explored”.
Everyone knows the current algorithm is flawed with only popular people, kittens, flowers, smiley faces and sunrises being featured.... "flawed I hear you say...but I like kittens!"
I just reloaded Explore 15-20 times and did not see one picture of interest to ME.
If I was interested in Explore then my vision would be to be able to program MY OWN ALGORITHM or select a TEMPLATE ALGORITHM Flickr provides, so when I look at explore it will show me a selection of images from artists I know I will NEVER see in the current format.
This I believe would be a perfect solution for everyone. You will be able to see work that is tailored to your taste and discover like minded Artists.
All I know is something needs to change as I have seen enough Bokeh nonsense to last me several lifetimes.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Mr Wolfy edited this topic 36 months ago.
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Oh Don, sorry to say: I really do see nothing but differences between the members of our group and the members of some other groups!
In my opinion those people and we do have almost nothing in common... bad luck! :-(
For example just look on our photographic skills and the interestingness of our photos: Not comparable! All we do is bore others with our pics, whilst the members of some special groups really entertain them!!!
Posted 36 months ago.
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To be serious for a moment, I think the best thing would be to kill off Explore entirely. Groups and friends-of-friends are far better at finding good pictures, and for showing the best of Flickr to the world the Flickr Blog does a good job.
And it'd instantly kill off the "post one, comment 3" rubbish.
Damn, got sucked into the discussion...
Posted 36 months ago.
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caledonia girl [deleted] says:
don
if you were chocolate ,you'd eat yourself
you are so far up your own arse you don't know which end to brush your dentures and i've had enough of you and your croonies so pimp away . i'm off
Posted 36 months ago.
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And Don, may I please just make you aware of another one of your huge errors in reasoning?
You and your friends on the one hand and the great majority of Flickr members on the other hand do NOT have the same goals regarding Explore!!! So there's absolutely no way, how your perfect solution could at the same time also be the perfect solution for the great majority of all Flickr members! No way! :-)
So why not simply leaving the solution for Explore to Flickr? Can't you believe, that they already know, what to do best? So why do you always feel the need to give them "wise" advices and meddle in their affairs?
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Silanov edited this topic 36 months ago.
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@caledonia girl
if you were chocolate ,you'd eat yourself
Hahaha, my best laugh today! :-))
Posted 36 months ago.
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Peter: Nice word play. That's creative. We have to be careful what we say here...someone might suggest demoting Explore to the status of a lowly group. LOL
Ben: I wish more folks who visited my photostream would engage here in this forum. I guess they don't like getting poked in the eye...that could hurt their photographic vision I suppose. (No cracks about that Caledonia Girl. LOL) The truth is they will read about these issues on my stream, but they don't see the value of showing up here in "public hall."
Fletch: Selfish! Inauthentic! Probably not limited to Explore, eh? Hum...maybe we should simply appreciate the human beings underneath those behaviors.
Posted 36 months ago.
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"Fletch: Selfish! Inauthentic! Probably not limited to Explore, eh? Hum...maybe we should simply appreciate the human beings underneath those behaviors."
OK, That doesn't make sense. Did my words hit home? I don't really understand you point about "appreciating the humans underneath". Care to elaborate?
Posted 36 months ago.
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Mr. Wolfy: Wow great points. I'll fave that. In all seriousness, your suggestion is a very good one! Bravo!
Peter: You must stop this. I am seriously in tears laughing. There are some very good photographers in your group. Seriously.
Ben: I do not like the required commenting, faving, and awarding stuff in groups either. I am optimistic that Flickr will do the right things in terms of Explore and other possible changes in Flickr. Really I am.
Caledonia Girl: I hope I didn't ruin your day. Seriously, there are plenty of important things to upset our balance in life. I don't mean to be one of them. Chocolate, eh? Gives me an idea for my next photo series.
Peter: What do you think of the idea of appreciative inquiry?
Posted 36 months ago.
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Fletch: My point was that selfish and inauthentic behavior is the tip of the iceberg. Doing battle at that level does not help the person exhibiting that behavior to become more authentic and considerate of others.
And, these behaviors are just as evident here in this group as they are anywhere else in the Flickr community. It's hard at times, but I think it is important for all of us to look past the behavior we don't like in others and see and appreciate the person.
One final point, people tend to dislike in others what they see in themselves. Vanity is one reason to look in the mirror each morning, the other is to prevent from smearing your lipstick or cutting your nose off while shaving.
Posted 36 months ago.
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People also tend to dislike in others what they dislike.
Full stop.
Many people dislike the trend of "frequent front pagers" fast faving of everything their contacts post, regardless of what it might be. BUT if that other person does the same.......and the circle widens........then yes, all of these people are represented via the current 'Interestingness' algorithm. As it is defined, yes, the multitude of comments and faves tells the algorithm something is 'interesting'
But it is interesting to that one circle of people, mutual favers/commenters, and not to flickr as a whole.
(edited for clarity)
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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MissyV110 edited this topic 36 months ago.
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Don: I think most people would be disappointed if the reciprocal nature of the community were to be destroyed.
Apologies if I've missed your point, but I'm curious as to why you feel that changing/binning Explore would result in that outcome?
Surely for the vast majority of users, there are many more factors that generate reciprocity other than Explore.
Posted 36 months ago.
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Don - Perhaps you should try to save explore here.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Flet©h edited this topic 36 months ago.
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Missy:
Thanks.
You said: "People also tend to dislike in others what they dislike." I would agree.
Personally, I tend to be more attracted to (interested in) people who operate from a positive position of what they like or admire in life, rather than what they dislike or don't admire.
What am I for? I am all for growing and strengthening the quality and diversity of the Flickr community globally to advance photography as an art form and tool for personal, organizational and community insight and improvement.
Missy, in my experience, when I see people criticize others, it's very often the classic case of the "pot calling the kettle black." For example, someone accuses another of feathering his or her nest (in any sense of the expression) or being addicted to their need for personal attention, these are the very things they seek (perhaps in other ways), but the accuser possesses the same dark side needs as he or she sees in the accused.
Appreciative Inquiry, (if you're interested, see the posts above) as a methodology for improving organizations and communities, focuses on the identification of a positive basis for change without bludgeoning people to death.
Posted 36 months ago.
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Appreciative inquiry, thanks for the link(s).
Bludgeoning? My goodness.
Don, in my experience, one must be careful not to categorize people as critical in nature simply because they make they views known on what they find to be distasteful "mutual admiration for ANYTHING" behaviour. Just a general statement. Also, in my experience, there are many people with opinions/criticisms which are just that, and have no link to a dark side of any sort. Well, we all have different experiences, thank goodness.
Posted 36 months ago.
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My question is if Explore was to go away, how many of these groups would still constantly, instantly fave all their contacts photos? For instance, I was reading a profile of one of these members who says that favs do not matter that much to them. Then what is the purpose if not for simple fact that they crave only to be on the FP of Explore regardless of the pic?
Posted 36 months ago.
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John,
I agree with your point that there are many other ways of generating reciprocity within the Flickr community and Explore is just one of them.
I said what I said because this community is fundamentally about people sharing all types of photography worldwide. The act of sharing is the embodiment of reciprocity. This is also why I put the link to the study out there --it speaks to the reciprocal nature of this online community, and the social relations and behaviors associated with that.
There are two parts to changing an organization or community and both are important: 1) making the 'right" changes to strengthen and sustain people and communities; and 2) approaching those changes in the right way. The right way in my mind is a positive change process and not one that clubs people. I think a positive, appreciative approach makes the most sense in dealing with Explore. (See posts above for references to appreciative inquiry.)
Posted 36 months ago.
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Don - Appreciative Inquiry?
I dislike people who invent consultant speak buzz phrases to justify charging for concepts and theorys that have been in use and operated just fine without a bollocks phrase. Does that mean that I really have a craving for inventing such phrases?
Anyway what do you sugest using your 'AI' methodology? It seems people like getting genunine views/comments/faves on their photos, maybe this is the positive basis for your change? OK so, given there is a fairly finite number of view/comments/faves per user, creating a positive experince for the majority may result in a minority having a less positive experince. That minority being the people who currently get the most views/faves/comments.
This seems to me exatly what Heather's comments about a more inclusive Explore were pointing to. From your words you seem to be against that change so what do you propose as a positive change based on 'AI'?
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Flet©h edited this topic 36 months ago.
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Missy,
You're welcome.
I will give you this one...bludgeoning might be a tad overblown. LOL
As to your last point, heard and agreed. We do all have different experiences as you say. I can appreciate that.
~~~~~~~
Rhonda,
By my calculation, somewhere between 33.8% and 33.9% of the groups would stop their current method of faving, commenting, and awarding. Instead, they would issue gift cards as part of your group membership to so many seats in Explore.
Someday I am going to post one of my pictures and put a moratorium on comments and faves for the day and see what happens. And I'm sure Missy will run a pipe on my stream; (photostream that is) to make sure I actually do that. BUT, if that photo does not make Explore, you can expect a lawsuit being filed against your EGO group.
Posted 36 months ago.
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there is a great percentage of half nakedness that make it to explore, it might as well be called "sexplore".
Posted 36 months ago.
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Fletch,
First, appreciative inquiry is out there, in use, and getting lots of positive results in organizations. It's a reality and not just some term to bilk a buck from people. I agree with you about the buzz words in any field (including my own) are crazy. Much of the strategy lingo makes me nuts. Every organization has its language or organizationspeak . Flickr has one that includes Explore, groups, faves, comments, etc.
The answer to your question on how to use AI here on Flickr will cost you some MONEY. Insert bucks here______________.
Seriously, the process of using AI here on Flickr would be much the same as that used in other types of organizations. Here is a link to an article that maps out the AI steps: www.consultmillennia.com/documents/Appreciative Inquiry.pdf (Because this is a virtual organization/community, the process would need to be adapted to fit this context)
On your final point, I don't know what Heather and Flickr staff plan to do so I don't know if I am for it or not. I would not be engaged here if I did not see the need to make some changes to how Explore works. I firmly believe more people should have access to Explore (just as long as my pictures continue to get explored everyday) THAT WAS A JOKE!!!!!
Posted 36 months ago.
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Got to get back to work...thank goodness I run my own business...
Posted 36 months ago.
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"THAT WAS A JOKE"
So was a large part of what I said above. Unfortunately you failed to see that. THIS ISN'T A JOKE!
Posted 36 months ago.
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if anyone wants to see how good their photo really is, try winning 5 challenges in a row and making it to the pool of the You vs. the Best group.
Basically, your photo has to beat 5 people in a row to make it to the pool:
www.flickr.com/groups/26485789@N00/
Even some of my explored shots don't get through...
Posted 36 months ago.
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Don: I've also had high-level exposure to appreciative inquiry. If I used a phrase from one of the leaders of the AI schools:
"Improvements should be ... systemically desirable and culturally feasible
NOT
systemically feasible and culturally desirable",
would you understand me?
Posted 36 months ago.
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Fletch, Not sure what you are referring to. The only part of my last comment to you that was a joke was this: "(just as long as my pictures continue to get explored everyday)"
Ven16: Great. What is your view of AI and its relevance to Flickr?
Huh? Can you give me the source you drew this phrase from?
Posted 36 months ago.
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If I was going to overhaul Explore, I'd personalize it.
"Here are the photos that you might find interesting", loosely based on "Other people who faved the photos you faved also faved these". (Obviously other variables would be used, but that would be the gist). The goal of the algorithm would be to match your tastes with the tastes of other users.
This would eliminate a lot of the complaints - as there's no longer a monolithic explore to get into. It would also solve the gaming problem. If user A simply faves *every* photo User B posts and vice versa, and if I didn't fave those photos myself, my compatibility with those users would quickly drop and I'd stop seeing their photos on my personal Explore page. It would thus de-incentivize automatic reciprocal arrangements.
Posted 36 months ago.
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I don't wish to bore the pants off others by explaining the version of Appreciative Inquiry I referred to, so I've FMed Don with the reference and brief advice.
As short as I can make it: when improvements are suggested, it is all too easy to make them systemically feasible (i.e. they can be made operational, regardless of whether improvement actually happens, and for whom) and culturally desirable (by inference meaning desirable to the beneficiaries and/or controllers of the present status quo). That is the wrong way to change a system.
Even shorter: we need a new system beneficial to all stakeholders of Flickr and Explore, including non-Flickrites who view Explore as a shop window (and are currently saying 'what the hell is this mixed bag'!)
[Don is doing post-grad work and finalising a report for some section of North Americans public benefit. Good man, Don—it's just that we differ on Explore!]
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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Ven16(my camera is a social weapon) edited this topic 36 months ago.
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~ fernando [deleted] says:
San Diego Shooter wrote if anyone wants to see how good their photo really is, try winning 5 challenges in a row and making it to the pool of the You vs. the Best group. I don't follow how that is game/contest that measures good... but I hope it is fun to those that run it, and participate. Nice to hear that Explored photos don't make it through whatever the process is.
Originally posted 36 months ago.
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~ fernando edited this topic 36 months ago.
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A personal explore or moderate explore are not a new idea
this is from 2 years ago !
Are "Moderate" Photographers Second Class Citizens?
"When photographers who take "safe" photos are given opportunities for exposure which advantage them over those who take "moderate" photos-- it is a unwarranted penalization.
It creates a community where those who take "safe" photos are rewarded-- and those who take "moderate" photographs feel discriminated against.
Until there is a "moderate" and "restricted" version of Explore, Flickr is not giving it's members equal status and privileges.
We all pay the same membership fees and we all deserve the same opportunity to enjoy the Flickr experience-- in it's entirety. "
-Lola Lyndon
And here is the flickr staff reply
Well, I've discussed this with other staff, and it is not going to happen.
I am getting ready for a week long holiday starting tomorrow, and trying to wrap up a bunch of work stuff, so I don't have time to discuss, but I wanted to get back to you as I promised.
The reasons that different filter levels of explore is not on our feature to-do list:
# It is a ton of work. A lot more than I thought. The algorithm that runs explore has been under constant work for years, and is fairly fine-tuned to EXCLUDE the sort of material that a moderate/restricted explore would showcase. For those that suggest we don't need a complex algorithm, and can just list the stuff that gets lots of views and comments: you're wrong :) I've seen this view, and it is porn porn porn porn.
# We cannot do a "restricted" Explore, because it would be nothing more than a porn showcase, and to do a "moderate" explore without a "restricted" one would encourage people to use "moderate" when self-modding their photos when "restricted" would be more appropriate, weakening the whole filter system.
# If we had a moderate Explore, we'd need to hire more help to monitor for objectionable content.
# Instead of having a disgruntled minority complaining about the inoffensiveness of Explore, we'd be dealing with a larger group of users unhappy with us highlighting content that most people do not want to see.
So taking those things into consideration, there are many other features we'd rather spend our development time on, features that we think will benefit more users. Many of the problems listed above are probably solvable one way or another, but it is a question of limited development resources and an already huge list of features we're working on.
Posted 36 months ago.
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i don't think you can measure "good".....it just measures whether people in the group think your photo is better technically and/or artistically than 5 other challengers (one after another)
Posted 36 months ago.
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(201 to 300 of 451 replies in [Closed (Time out)] Your Vision of Explore in the Future)
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FlickrCentral /
Discuss
"I am not trying to be fascist about it, but if folks don't want negative comments, even if they are constructive, they should say, or have the option of blocking everyone except their friends."
"I shoot everyday and I put one shot up on flickr I think folks might find interesting"
I did not found that group! But I do think it's VITAL that we all work together to SAVE EXPLORE exactly as it is!
"But I do think it's VITAL that we all work together to SAVE EXPLORE exactly as it is! "
: I have posted my response to Ben's comment here:
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