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Anybody Else Hate This City?
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I cant take this city anymore. Its too freaking crowded. people are in WAY too much of a hurry to get places they dont wanna be. Well im sick of it all. As soon as I get my apprenticeship, im gone. Anyone else hear what im sayin?
Posted at 9:37AM, 13 May 2007 PDT
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MS Sucks(Peter) [deleted] says:
I hear you "The Stickness". In my opinion greed is the common denominator.
Posted 61 months ago.
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Yup. This city has quickly become much less a friendly place. It's every dog for himself, these days. It's all about ME, ME, and ME. Nobody seems to give a crap about anybody else, anymore, and as The Stickness said, the whole city is always in a hurry to get somewhere they probably don't even want to be. Welcome to Toronto WEST. Unfortunately, this is what happens when the population density reaches critical mass.
Posted 61 months ago.
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MS Sucks(Peter) [deleted] says:
Hi Gary:
Regarding the rush that people are in I have to laugh when people run to catch a C Train during "Rush Hour" when the trains are on a 6 minute schedule. Trying to get off a C Train during those hours reminds me of using the TTC years back.
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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MS Sucks(Peter) edited this topic 61 months ago.
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hehehe. Very much so, Peter. Been there. Done that, too. Couldn't leave quickly enough, Toronto that is.
The term "Rush Hour" is oxymoronic, really. Everybody is in panic mode, all trying to get somewhere, all at the same time. The result is, everything slows down to a crawl pace. Rush hour, indeed.
Posted 61 months ago.
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its just like coming home from work. I go up from EDM trail to McKnight, and it usually locks the one way(westbound) but nowadays, its locked up BOTH freraking ways. im just sick of it all
Posted 61 months ago.
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The infrastructure in Calgary sucks.
The transit system here is a joke but the biggest joke is the price of parking downtown.
But the mountains are wonderful and very close by.
Posted 61 months ago.
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Something seriously has to give. Don't start thinking any real solution is fast coming down the track, though. My guess is we'll likely see a lot of this increased stress and frustration manifest itself in an increased use of prescription pharmaceuticals.
Road rage is no longer something we routinely associate with LA, Toronto, New York, and other large metropolitain areas. It's here, and has been for quite some time now, in our small town, the one we call Calgary.
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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FullFrameFotography edited this topic 61 months ago.
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I love big cities, and have been to many all over the world (and lived in London). I find that the problem with Calgary (and I'm a native) is that it has all the problems of a big city, but none of the advantages. It still thinks like a small town.
Too many people are still quite provincial and conservative in their thinking, and it doesn't feel cosmopolitan, despite what politcians and the chamber of commerce try to tell everyone.
Posted 61 months ago.
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Indeed, Lisa. I whole heartedly agree with your statement on conservativism. It's like there is a force, that is collectively digging its heels in, in an attempt to resist moving forward, forward toward evolving into a cosmopolitain, world class city.
I don't think we should leave it up to the politicians to get us there, either. I, personally, don't feel that mayor big buck$ Bronconier has the right approach to resolving many of Calgary's more serious issues. But, I don't want to get up on a soapbox in this venue.
That being said, I DO think that the art society needs to drive it, with the private business sector on board, to provide support and direction. I feel that only through awareness, education, and appreciation, does a population widen its perspective, and develop a taste for a more evolved, and culturally richer way of life.
But, I digress. We've taken The Stickness' population discussion to a whole other level.
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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FullFrameFotography edited this topic 61 months ago.
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shadow_of_me [deleted] says:
Lisa:
You nailed it! Yay! Big time.
Posted 61 months ago.
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Supercell Sid [deleted] says:
Edmontonian living here for 2+ years...and sheesh - the commute drives me mad. It's too crowded....everywhere. Edmonton is almost as bad. Longing for small town life....one day...one day! lol
Lisa - I agree with you too. Well said.
Posted 61 months ago.
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3.2.1.deleted [deleted] says:
And just what are the advantages to being a 'world class city'? Toronto has whined about being just that but also that nobody was taking them seriously in that classification.
Whatever. I just want a bunch of checkpoint charlies set up at the city borders and anybody coming in that does not have a place to live and a job already, can get turned away.
Bah.
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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3.2.1.deleted edited this topic 61 months ago.
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shadow_of_me [deleted] says:
Wow... the only time I heard something similar (the opinion, not the action, g'd forbids - we still live in civilized country) was on the radio about one lil' town in Quebec. They fixed them quickly though.
That's another thing I noticed about this city - lots of people are full of hatred.
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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shadow_of_me edited this topic 61 months ago.
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And intolerance.
Trevor can't really be serious, can he!?
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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FullFrameFotography edited this topic 61 months ago.
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MS Sucks(Peter) [deleted] says:
I actually call it PMS as in "Poor Me Syndrome"!!!
Calgary has played the victim role for years. When things are booming we believe that we're the center of the universe. When things falter economically it's always the "East" to blame.
Economic diversity is drastically lacking here and it's nobodys fault but that of the Chamber of Commerce and City Administration accomodating the Oil Industry. They're making Billions of Dollars in profits, jacking up gas prices and inadvertently causing a housing shortage and a general inflationary environment.
Yes there was the "National Energy Program" but I don't see any action on behalf of the Chamber of Commerce or the City to prepare for a possible future bust. They'll blame those "Easteners" again. I better watch it as I'm from outside the "Firewall". he he!!!!
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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MS Sucks(Peter) edited this topic 61 months ago.
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3.2.1.deleted [deleted] says:
Me serious? Some days even I don't know how far the tongue-in-cheek meter has swung. That being said, I am depressed at all the problems the boom has brought. No, they aren't all due to the influx of people, that's more of a slice of pie on the side rather than the main course here. I don't know what that means, I just came up with that.
Almost looking forward to the next bust. How many of those big projects downtown will be half finished concrete skeletons for a decade or more when that happens? Will that be worse than the problems now?
calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/2007/05/10/4168301-sun.html
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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3.2.1.deleted edited this topic 61 months ago.
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shadow_of_me [deleted] says:
For this very reason, all famous classical music performers skip Calgary and fly from Toronto to Vancouver without stopping. For a city that big, there is only one single store with classical music CDs.
Hopefully, as more people come from East, there will be more cultural events that will be popular.
I also wonder why people here can't really cope with things? Traffic is still not crazy, life is still good in general. Yet, so many ppl here are freakin' 'cause they can't handle that life's been changing. Give me a break. Somehow people live in much tougher parts of the world/country and still have positive attitude and still cope with stress.
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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shadow_of_me edited this topic 61 months ago.
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MS Sucks(Peter) [deleted] says:
Hi Trever:
I saw one of the members of the Parkland Institute interviewed on the CBC a couple days ago. I definitely wouldn't want to see a bust so to speak. I had a friend commit suicide in the early 80's after he had to sell his home for $1. There're a lot of people out there that could end up in the same situation if the real estate market takes a major tumble.
We need to strive for some sort of economical balance in this Great City or history will just repeat itself again. Diversity is Calgary's only way to free itself from total dependance of the volatile oil sector.
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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MS Sucks(Peter) edited this topic 61 months ago.
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When I get frustrated with living here I think about moving away, but there is no where to go in Canada if you want to stay in a "big" city! We're trapped here! Unless you want to or can leave Canada which I don't want to do, this is the best choice of a major city unless you don't own property in which case good luck.
I'll never do the humid summers of Montreal/Ottawa/Toronto again.
Who can afford Vancouver plus there is the webbed feet issue from living there. If you think Calgary is crowded, try walking or driving on Robson Street. Victoria, the average age is 100 and the ferry is a major pain. Edmonton is a really nice city, but too far from the Rockies and their airport doesn't have that many destinations. Winnipeg, I have never experienced, but it has a rep for mosquitoes and arctic weather.
I agree there are some rigid angry retrogressive types here, but the majority of people I interact with in Calgary are tolerant, progressive, educated, and come from here and around the world.
I always take Trever seriously.
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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LUMIN8 edited this topic 61 months ago.
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MS Sucks(Peter) [deleted] says:
Ahhh!!! James. I forgot all about the sleepless sticky nights during the summer. Thx for the reminder. I must admit that I love the climate here.
Posted 61 months ago.
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Me too. I wilt when I go somewhere else that is hot and humid.
Apparently our climate is too dry for dust mites to live in so we're more than just rat free!
Posted 61 months ago.
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To be honest, after spending a week in L.A. in October and a similar amount of time in July in Vancouver and Seattle, my take on traffic in Calgary is that it's not really that bad -- it just happens to be more than people are used to. Could it be better? Definitely. Could it be worse? You better believe it. To that end, I attended a rather interesting lecture at the U. on traffic congestion -- one that probably challenges the conventional wisdom around here that you solve every traffic problem by building more roads and more interchanges. To that end, the lecturer suggested that the best way to solve traffic congestion was to eliminate economic activity (check out Detroit for an example of this) -- no economic activity, no traffic! Voila -- simple, no? In the absence of that, he suggested that traffic congestion really was a sign of health and that as long as congestion did not impact the city in a significantly detrimental way (like the traffic in some third world cities that only L.A. in North America is approaching), it was a reasonable trade off for expanded activity.
As for the cosmopolitan and world-class city -- can anyone define for me what that really means? What do we need to have in order to have a cosmopolitan and world-class city? I have yet to meet the large droves of ignorant, intolerant, racist rednecks that people seem to paint the Calgary population with. I'm not denying they likely exist but I haven't met that many yet. We're certainly starting to get on the art band wagon -- things like the Fringe are starting to pop up and I think there's a general acceptance things like that. I was both surprised and impressed (for instance) with those who showed up for the body art shows -- it was quite the broad demographic representation. Admittedly, some of this is new and just starting to take off but isn't that the whole point? If cosmopolitan is embracing arts and culture, you can either kill the nascent movement with much bitterness and complaining or you can build it by creating a lot of positive word-of-mouth (which is probably the most powerful tool -- stepping into a poetry reading or an art show or a modernist play is really challenging if you don't have someone there with you who is experienced in the norms of that culture).
Posted 61 months ago.
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3.2.1.deleted [deleted] says:
Traffic . . . is getting a bit hairy but mostly due to lane closures from all the construction. Just wait until the inevitable transit strike. Remember last time?
I'm glad that I can telecommute when necessary.
Rednecks . . . you just have to go an hour north to Red Deer to find a preponderance of that sort :-)
I'm not against arts and culture etc. What I am against is tooting our horn prematurely and constantly squawking 'look at us, we're world class' as has been the impression I got from TO's whinging.
"They dress real bad and think they're New York" ha.
I'll take the slightly backward backwaters here any day, just don't let the economy get superheated like this, it just won't end well. We all know it.
Posted 61 months ago.
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I'm a cyclist by preference. year round. traffic woes I have are bad drivers, which are everywhere, but in this city people actually still believe it's illegal to ride a bike on the road. that it's ok to back up, take aim, and try to hit the cyclist.. yes, it happened to me, after the guy made an illegal turn and HE blames me for it..
anyways, I am a born Calgarian
but if you ask me, I'm British Columbian, I grew up there.those 3 years there taught me more open minded tolerance, than growing up here. not to mention a serious lack of trees here.
"too many rednecks and not enough trees to hang them from"
Welcome to Calgary, Xenophobia capital of Canada. unfortunately, it is contagious. prepare for a battle.
Posted 61 months ago.
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shadow_of_me [deleted] says:
But here it is on a housing bubble:
www.td.com/economics/comment/pg050807.pdf
They hope for the soft landing.... I doubt (based on economists I read). It was bound to burst, never been that fast, that high, that big.
No, I don't wish anybody bad; especially after reading Peter's friend's story. But this had to end - nobody can afford houses. The only reason people are buying houses for current prices, is they believe they going to cost 2-3 millions in 10 years.
Com'n, with current salaries, who can afford a 700,000.000 house? I feel sorry for those who was hooked on greed and the desire to keep up with Jones, and thought that people like me are going to retire in their Hondas; but this had to end. Face it - salary vs. house payments are absolutely not realistic.
All b/s I heard about not enough land and stuff... Com'n.... where? in Canada?
Japan was through that. ANd that's where I could at least listen to the "not enough land" reason. Well... their whole economy was struggling for years after bubble burst. I believe housing crashed for 16 years.
As far as the mentioning of the rednecks goes. Oh, yeh; that was something that got me in shock. And yes, I do meet them on a regular basis. Quite often right in down town Calgary - you don't have to drive to Lethbridge or Red Deer.
Sometimes I can't believe I am in Canada.
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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shadow_of_me edited this topic 61 months ago.
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Don't get me wrong, I think Calgary has lots of pluses and potential. The mountains, pathways, relatively clean air, no humidity!
Although I have encountered plenty of rednecks,there's another sort of person I dislike more - likely educated, maybe go to the ballet on occasion, designer gear in the closet, but it's all about consumerism. I just don't like the seemingly prevalent attitude of bigger bigger bigger, buy buy buy. It's all about appearances, and not all of us can compete. (And yes, I like to shop too, and have nice things). Anyone who's been to a Winners will recognize this - people with carts overflowing with clothes and stuff, and they do it weekly! Just because we can build huge houses, do we need to? More to clean, I always think!
As many have mentioned, traffic is worse in other cities, but I think with Calgary, it's the fact that many of us aren't used to it, and it seems to have come to us so quickly, we haven't had time to adapt. We're like a teenager that has grown 5 inches over a summer and suffering major growing pains.
For me, cosmopolitan is hard to define, but I know it when I feel it. There's a certain energy you feel in places like Vancouver, San Fran, Montreal, Bangkok. For me, Calgary feels like high school, where people think they're really cool without knowing what that is, or what else is out there,(I don't consider myself "cool" BTW!) whereas big cities feel like grad school. That probably doesn't make much sense...!
Posted 61 months ago.
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3.2.1.deleted [deleted] says:
highschool -- perfect allusion, yes!
Posted 61 months ago.
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shadow_of_me [deleted] says:
Lisa,
you nailed it again for me. The teenager pain growth - was the exact analogy that I was thinking about.
There is actually a certain amount of snobbery in Ottawa when you go to NAC. Some people are there for the looks only. But at least, the venues are available and these snobs do bring children. And who knows, maybe their children will take for real.
Posted 61 months ago.
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Wow I go away for a half a day, and the comments just keep flooding in.
Posted 61 months ago.
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I'd have to agree with the consumerist attitudes -- although I'm fairly certain that I've seen it more extreme elsewhere. We buy because we can -- not because we need it.
I think the high school analogy is apt -- although I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing. It argues that we can have a more direct impact on shaping the character of the city. Yet I haven't found cities like Vancouver or Montreal to be any more open-minded in terms of their attitudes -- whether on racism or sexuality or global warming, people seem to only accept those that share the same beliefs.
Posted 61 months ago.
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You haven't found more open-mindedness on issues like racism, sexuality, or global warming in cities like Montreal or Vancouver?
We either:
a) live in very different areas of Calgary
b) have been to very different areas of Vancouver and Montreal
c) all of the above
I find Calgary about on par with Abbotsford (my original hometown) on those issues, not Vancouver or Montreal. Not at all.
That's just my experience, however.
Posted 61 months ago.
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Interesting discussion.
Coming from Montreal years ago I made Calgary home by chance ...not by choice. Calgary does have it's issues ...but other Canadian centers are just as worse off if not more so.
I get nervous when I hear people use words such as hatred and racism ...because it usually means that they given up on they're belief that this wonderful city.
Having lived here for 30 years I look back at where I think the town planners realized that this was going to be a much different city than their forefathers predicted. The cycles of the Oil and Gas business in this province have been the key driver. The Western Canadian Sedimentary Basin is depleting quickly. The current situation is not sustainable. The city is correct to get as much work done as it can now ...because in the not to distant future the oil and gas royalties just won't be there.
All this babble aside ...I still feel safer here than most cities that I travel to.
I still love the fact that in the hottest of summer days ..I can breathe ...
I still love the fact that the phenomena known as "Chinook" ...exists.
I still love the fact that I can drive an hour from my house in any direction ....and be alone.
I still love the fact that I can see the mountains ...
Yes Calgary isn't perfect ....but I would still argue ...the grass isn't always greener ...and this city is only as good as the people that live in it ....which we ALL are.
Posted 61 months ago.
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I'm with Ian... Have followed this discussion a little yesterday as well...
Does Calgary have issues? Yes! Does any other large city have issues? Yes!
I still love Calgary, and I'm one who has seen the growth of the city, having lived the majority of my life here... Born here in 1972, and only spending a few years in other places.
This kind of dicussion always happens as a city grows. I remember well a discussion I had with a man back when I lived in Ontario.
I lived in the city of Barrie (2000 to 2003), population of about 115,000 people. I once talked to a man during that time period. He lived in Lindsay, population of about maybe 35,000 and also more out of the way from Toronto. He told me that he used to live in Barrie but moved away to Lindsay when he saw Barrie getting too big for his own taste.
My take? Change happens... Particularly population increases, particularly in large cities. I know there are some who dislike it (as is apparent in this thread), but I would argue there are as many who embrace it. They live in a different city than the one they lived in several years ago, in some cases many years ago. Those who are uncomfortable with it can move on, and the beauty of this country is that we have the freedom to move elsewhere within the country as we choose to with no restrictions. But there are many (I would even say most) long-time Calgarians who will choose to stay and just adapt to the change. Because that is life, full of change of all sorts.
And, pertinent to many of you and your interests, I believe the cultural and artistic opportunities will only increase as the city gets bigger. Which is a good thing for artistic-minded folks.
Posted 61 months ago.
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ok-
1968- now.
love love love my city.
Love the stampede even. yep, best place in the whole world to live and I tell everyone that.
:)
Posted 61 months ago.
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There really is no right or wrong answer to this issue ...
James ..I love your street sense and feel for the true heartbeat of the city ...
Lori ....one big "Atta Girl" .....for my favorite Calgarian.
Posted 61 months ago.
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3.2.1.deleted [deleted] says:
Heh. Half of the people I know 'escape' the city during stampede, the other half go party their faces off. Different strokes for different folks. Good to have the option, yes.
I vary and make it down to the grounds about once every 5 years. Nothing like getting puked on from high altitude+velocity drunken yahooer conveyances :-)
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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3.2.1.deleted edited this topic 61 months ago.
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I hated this city for years after I moved here. I still have little use for most of it. It's all industrial park!
But there are wonderful sports facilities, and if you like to hike, and I do, you can't beat living this close to the mountains.
I could do without the drunken suburban cowboys and displays of animal cruelty that is the Stampede. Less wretched country music and more jazz, please.
Oh, and the winters are tolerable. Too bad they're indistinguishable from spring and fall. All in all, I'd rather live in Geneva.
Posted 61 months ago.
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I currently have a friend in from New Jersey, he seems to belive that Calgary is such a calm city, quiet and reserved .. LMAO he was devistated when we went for a night time tour at 11 and everythign was closed.
I Love Calgary, won't live anywhere else, but it is getting to be a bit to "big city" for me, and to impatient!!! I will probably just live in the outskirts when I buy a house.. but honestly if i am not within walking distance of a store open till at least 10pm, i am absolutly miserable!
Posted 61 months ago.
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I just hate the lineups everytime that I need a Tim Horton's coffee........but once I get that Tim's coffee, how nice is it to take a float down the Bow or the Elbow in either a raft or a kayak.......perhaps a hike and breakfast, lunch or dinner cooked on a fire in Fish Creek Park..........a bike ride or roller blade outing from Bowness Park to Eau Claire........perhaps people living in a larger city need to discover a few more of the hidden secrets a larger city has to offer.......Calgary has plenty.....
Posted 61 months ago.
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How about doin' a photo essay on your frustrations.....Shoot a series of photos that express your feelings towards the city and all its annoyances. Then on the other side of the coin if you love it show that. I guess you can post it here and everyone can have look and discuss the essays.
This could tie in well with Spirit 57's idea
www.flickr.com/groups/calgary/discuss/72157600175898474/
Just a thought.
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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Bryce Meyer edited this topic 61 months ago.
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Personally, I want the "cosmopolitan" character we have now with about half the people. I'm born and bred Calgarian and let me tell you, this city is a lot more "cosmopolitan" than what it was when I was growing up.
Now as to what that word means to me, I expect to be able to go eat / drink and have a choice to partake in most world cuisines. I expect that the nightlife will also have a selection of cultural events that span the world. I expect different architectural styles in different parts of the city. I expect there to be little Italys and Chinatowns. I expect to be able to find other people with my own interests and tastes, be they common, or on the more eccentric side. And, from this site's POV, I expect there to be endless opportunities for photos on a range of subjects.
Are we there yet? Hell no! We will never be there in some respects - New York is New York partly because it's had the time to develop all the interesting facets it has, unlike Toronto, or Calgary. But, we do have more of the good stuff that makes a big city a tourist attraction than we had 20 years ago. Unfortunately, we have more of the problems too.
I rode home on my bicycle from downtown for the first time today during "rush hour" and I just can't believe how stressful it is now compared to the last time I would've done that oh, 15 years ago or so. *Most* people are fine and reasonable, it's the assholes and idjits that you remember, and their are enough people on the paths now that the 2% human scum factor is getting to be a real problem. OTOH, I can have a nice ride home along the Bow River (even with the idjits) and not have to fight with the traffic for a good part of the ride home. Not too many cities where you can do that, for sure.
Let me comment on Trever's original thought, specifically
"anybody coming in that does not have a place to live and a job already, can get turned away."
What the hell is wrong with that? He's pretty much stating Ralph Klein's Creeps and Bums speech in a different way - why would you move to another city without a job and a place is beyond me - but people do it all the time - and in Calgary right now, if you try it, you are more likely that not to get burned. Turning them away would be doing them a favor - there are enough people with jobs but can't afford a place who end up living on the street as it is. The word has to be gotten out to the rest of the country that a $10/hr job alone is not enough to dig up roots and come out here - you'd better have your living space covered too, and while you're at it, get a $15/hr job.
Posted 61 months ago.
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"The New Calgary"
I was as an "Army Brat" and lived in Calgary from 1958 to 62. Then called Winnipeg home for about 5 years. My family then moved back in the summer of 67 and I have lived here since. My birth place was in a small town in Germany leaving there at 2 yrs old, but I feel my home is here.
A year after moving back from Winnipeg, the Calgary Tower sprung up out of nowhere and other old buildings were being knocked down. Those old buildings were a part of Calgary's history but are unfortunately gone for ever. Calgary has been really good to me, for the most part. But having surpassed the 1 million mark in population, I'm finding that the cost of living in this city is becoming unmanageable. Fortunately I'm currently living in housing that is affordable. For others, this is a virtual nightmare!
(More here)
Calgary is becoming faster paced and joining the rest of the metropolitan cities around the globe. Some of us would like life to stay the way it was but it won't and that's a fact. As for Calgary's future, patience is a virtue.
Calgary had some nice spread out neighbourhoods I once lived in but when I go back I see two houses where there was one on that lot. Some 25 years ago they started doing this (housing infill) thing and nothing new but becoming more and more popular. Calgary had some ethnic neighbourhoods way back when and even those are changing. Canada in general is a country of many cultural backgrounds and no matter where we go in it, it will continue this way. A process that's also on-going throughout the world.
(except maybe Saskatchewan) =P
It's just plain growing bigger here...Try to embrace The New Calgary folks!
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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Buglugs edited this topic 61 months ago.
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cyberdex- volunteer at the stampede. I do that every year for the rotary club and I have never been puked on. haha
Posted 61 months ago.
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@The 10 cent designer (Lori)... Maybe thats why cowboy hats have them wide brims..?!!
Note to self... Wear cowboy hat and poncho to next Stampede Midway! <)= )
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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Buglugs edited this topic 61 months ago.
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Here is my mini-essay (6 photos) on the Art in Motion downtown beautification project. I shot it yesterday with a point & shoot camera.
This may be hard to believe, but one of the articles I researched for the photos says this:
"I think it reflects the creativity of the city and the importance of the artistic activities in a city. We all know that arts and culture is very important for the cities in order to attract the best people in every field," Roux said.
To reinforce that point, Desmond Rochfort, president of the Alberta College of Art & Design, fondly quotes Professor Richard Florida's book The Rise of the Creative Class. For a city of almost 1 million people, Calgary has the fourth-largest number of "creative" people living in it in North America. The conclusion: Cities with a significant creative sector have a competitive advantage, have a better quality of life and can attract the most talented workers.
That was written in 2003!
Originally posted 61 months ago.
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Floating Imitations edited this topic 61 months ago.
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Here is my photo essay about the other side of urban beautification shot last week (9 photos if you flip through my photostream backwards).
Posted 61 months ago.
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