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Nikon D50 or Canon EOS 350D
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Okay the time has come to purchase a digital SLR. I have done a lot of reading over the last two weeks and have got it down to two choices.
1) Nikon D50 (without standard kit lens, still not sure which I would go for)
2) Canon EOS 350D
So I ask all of you excellent photographers within the B&W group what have been your experiences with either of these cameras good or more importantly bad.
Also if you think 6 mega pixel (Nikon) is a big drawback compared to the 8 mega pixel (Canon).
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Posted at 8:33AM, 16 January 2006 PDT
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Wow, that's like asking who do you like better Yankees or Red Sox.
Most are die hard on one camp or the other.
Personally, I perfer canon. I have the 20D and couldn't be happier. Honestly, you couldn't go wrong with either of those cameras. Just know, once you pick and buy lens, you are pretty stuck with your choice. That is of course you can afford new lens for the new body if you switch later.
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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lazaro edited this topic 77 months ago.
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6 vs 8 MegaPixel would depend on your output. You'd probably start seeing the difference between those two when you start making 13x19 prints.
I'm also a very happy owner of a 20D. The choice for me was a no-brainer since I've already invested in Canon EF lenses with my prior Canon SLR.
They're both very comparable, primary difference being in the user interface. Go to a camera store that has both on the showroom. Set both of them into full manual mode and see how they differ in how you would set the aperature and shutter speed. Also see how they differ in setting different ISO, metering modes.
Pick the one that feels more intuitive and easy to access...
Posted 77 months ago.
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I'm using an Olympus E-500, and I think it's an excellent camera. But if you can see so few differences between the XT and the D50 that the choice isn't obvious, I'd say just pick one, and you'll be happy with it.
Posted 77 months ago.
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They both make excellent equipment. You won't be disappointed with either. Especially if its your first DSLR. Unless your doing giant mural prints on a regular basis, the megapixel difference won't matter. And even then, it would be questionable if you would notice a difference. Megapixels = Marketing.
I have a D50 and I'm pleased with it. Even the performance of the kit lens isn't all that bed when you use it within it's limits...
Posted 77 months ago.
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VincenzoF [deleted] says:
6 of one, half a dozen of the other. For every Canon guy (me) you'll find a Nikon guy (some other guy). Ask 100 people, you'll get 50 on one side, 50 on the other.
I think Wintermute23 is spot on when he says if you can't find a killer feature to sway you, go with one, whichever one, and enjoy.
Posted 77 months ago.
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Bibbzz [deleted] says:
Both are great cameras to have. I'll speak of the Rebel XT as my brother in law has one. I have 10D and 1DMKIIN.
The Rebel XT has mirror lock up and a backlit LCD status screen. Which is nice for long exposures at night.
It may be a little smaller which may or may not be a good thing.
There isn't a big difference between 6 and 8 but I'd take 8 in case I have to crop a little.
Focus is fast and sure but the viewfinder is a little small and dim. I don't know how it compares to the D50.
Build quality seems quite nice. Much better than the previous Rebel.
Kit lens was better than I expected it to be. Quite sharp when stopped down.
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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Bibbzz edited this topic 77 months ago.
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The Rebel XT is closer to comparison with the D70 I think... The D50 takes a few features off that the Rebel XT has on it.
I think the Canon Rebel XT/350D is a really good deal. It has the vast majority of the D70s for not that much more than the D50 costs.
That said either will give you good results.
...I'm a Nikon traitor, used to use Nikon SLR stuff. But when I switched to digital it seemed that Nikon was about 12-18 months behind Canon so I switched. That was a year ago, I still feel that way now.
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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fensterbme edited this topic 77 months ago.
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Your exaclty in the shoes i am in. Ive also been shopping for my first DSLR. Ive researched tons of material and looked at the 350D, 20D, used 10D, D70s, D50 & D200.
I dont have tons of money either and even though i drool at high end cameras, i have to remind myself id like to eat for the next few months :P.
That said, i have decided to go with the Canon 350D for a couple reasons.
First i chose between canon and nikon, because that pretty much decides wich lenses you can use. Oh yea, if you think shopping for a body is hard, wait till you start shopping for lenses.
I went for canon because i feel the innards are of higher quality components. Things you want to look at: sensor type, image processor, buffer memory, media type, lens mount.
Canon Rebel, 20D= Canon manufactured CMOS sensor and DIGIC II processor.
D50, D70, D200= Sony manufactured CCD sensor.
This was a big thing for me.
Of course, i have a personnal beef with sony that doesnt necessarily apply to you :P
But the CCD is the sensor used in point n shoot commercial cameras. Its the same tech in nikon SLR, just bigger. Where canon manufactures its own sensors, and they are CMOS type. I wont explain all the technical differences here, you can look it up. And it does bother me nikon does not manufacture their own sensors. They will eventually though, their newer high end models are coming out with JFET CMOS type, which works a bit like sigma foveon. I think everyone will be CMOS eventually.
After i had to decide between 350D and 20D.
1-Im not a studio photographer. I like to be out and about. So size and weight is an issue for me. the 20D is huge and heavy, the 350D is small and light. I like small cams. Thats just me. I also like to travel, and for portrait photography i like to be discreet.
2-If you look at the innards of the cameras, they are basically the same. canon 8mp CMOS (even if its 8.2 in the 20D, its still the same sensor tech and version.). DIGIC II processor, same in both. what the 20D has more? A magnesium alloy shell and a pentaprism instead of a mirror. It has a couple more options too, like 5fps instead of 3, so like me youll have to decide wether those differences are worth the extra 500$. From my point of view, they are arguably almost the same camera. Ive seen enough sample pics from both and i can say if you mix them all up i could never tell which came from which.
3- Starting out with a DSLR means lenses. The extra 500$ off the 20D id rather put on a good lens. I was told by many photographers this is a good idea, as i will most likely keep the lenses alot longer than the body.
So there you go. Canon 350D + decent lens. (probably 35mm f2)
Posted 77 months ago.
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I had almost the same problem as u, i say always cause i already had one Canon SLR, so the obvious route was to buy a dSLR from Canon, i already had the lenses so why go Nikon ?
Also i find company's using third-party solutions to be always one step behind, although i guess there are expections, like Sigma who uses the Foveon® X3, i believe they r better off using this chipset than one built by them.
I would love to get a grip on the Sigma SD10 ( very hard here ) to see the image ir produces, the Foveon® X3, at least in theory, is very interesting techonological speaking.
Posted 77 months ago.
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I have a canon 20D. There are most likely many small diffences between the XT and the D50. For those you can check
www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos350d/page2.asp
and
www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond50/page2.asp
For the most part the small differences will make no difference to you.
In my opinion (may not be anyone elses)
the main differences are
1) As you said 8MP vs 6MP. One nice thing is the sensor in the XT is the same as is in the 20D. Also, the 8MP does give you more rez which gives you a better cropping range.
2)Another difference is the ISO ranges on the cameras. The rebel XT is 100-1600 and the D50 is 200-1600.
3) The startup time (i.e. the length of time between hitting the power button and when you can take that first picture)
For the XT is more or less zero (.2 sec?). For the Nikon I'm not sure.
4) The look and feel. As you mentioned you have researched both online, now is the time to go to the store and try them out. The rebel XT is quite small (relative to a 20D even) and depending on your hand size this could be an issue. Again I'm not sure about the D50.
Posted 77 months ago.
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If you already have a modern SLR system that's Canon or Nikon, go with the same brand so you can keep all your lenses. If you don't, go to a photo store and handle both of the cameras extensively. If there's something that stands out as too good to pass up or too annoying to live with make your decision based on that. Otherwise it's a tossup. While I can sit and talk about why I have a Canon system, what it comes down to is that when I turned 15 my parents got me a Canon EOS 35mm SLR. There are benefits and drawback to both brands, so don't listen to fanboys. Listen to what you need in a camera.
Posted 77 months ago.
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When you buy a SLR, you're buying into a series of lenses, rather than a body. If you're getting a Nikor lens rather than a standard Nikon lens, then you have a good deal. Otherwise, people seem to get really nice pictures out of the standard Canon lenses.
Posted 77 months ago.
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I have a canon, and its good, but i have seen so many really sharpe pictures with the nikon, although the canon has less noise. six or 8..depends how big you make your pictures ! If you do lots of big a3+ prints then the canon. I'm happy, but a little jealous of the Nikons sharpness, look at me pics see what you think! Either way it will be the right choice, get the best bargain thats what i did.
;-)
Posted 77 months ago.
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@ akiraidho: The Sigma system with the Foveon sensor sounds great in theory (I was also hot to trot on this concept), I have friends who do optical/laser stuff for defense contractors, etc. (read: real optics/sensor nerds) and said it's not nearly what it's cracked up to be...
@sparklefantastic!: There are quite a number of differences I think most noticably the auto focus system. The 20D is worth the upgrade if you know why you need the features. The Rebel XT is a great camera through...
My big RebelXT/350D complaint was the size, way to small for my hands. And as for the weight, the 350D weighs in at 540g vs. the 20D's 770g for a diffence of 230g which is equal to about eight ounces or a half a pound. Not exactly a back breaking differnce, the 20D isn't that big at all, the weight is going to vary much more with the lens you mount to it.
Sparkle the 350D is a great camera and is a wonderful first DSLR to buy if your not sure how much power you need, and if your budget is somewhat tight. I think overall your much better with a RebelXT/350D and a decent lens than you are with the 20D and the cheap kit lens. But that all said, don't just blow off all the differences just because you choose not to get the 20D. The differences are there and noticable worth the increase in price, the question is do you need the extra features or not. For me the answer was yes...
Posted 77 months ago.
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wow. sorry i must have written between the lines somewhere that purchasers of the 20D are idiots.
Seriously relax. I didnt say it was a bad camera. I specifically pointed out points that related to my needs and wants. For the size i said "thats just me". If there wasnt a market for it, it wouldnt be sold. For *me*, no the differences arent worth 500$. For *me*, 3fps is good enough, and a 7 point vs a 9 point is fine. And i thought that would be pertinant for someone starting out, like me!
I dont see what i said so you felt you had to jump in and champion the 20D's defence. Of course its a fantastic camera! I really didnt spit on it at all, and i certainly didnt say putting out the extra 500$ was not an option or a dumb one.
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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Nicolas* edited this topic 77 months ago.
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I figure it's more important what lenses you like best. I happened to prefer what I was seeing out of Nikon lenses. I went for the D50 because it was cheaper too, but I like how it's designed over the 350D. I figure that in a couple years it'll be time to buy a new body from Nikon.
A review that talks about all three of these cameras in this price range with image samples, etc... can be found here.
I'd just say that you can't really go wrong with either. The 350D is a great camera as is the D50. You won't be unhappy with either. I don't think you'll even worry much that you didn't buy one or the other after you've chosen. It mostly boils down to what lenses you want to invest in, since that's where the real money and longevity comes into play.
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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Luke H edited this topic 77 months ago.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to come off that hard, I guess I was just trying to say...
Think about what you want to do (i.e. what you want to shoot and in what conditions), and what your needs/budget is and let that dictate the camera. Also all spec's aside the feel of the camera in your hand is a real 'thing'. I wouldn't wholesale point to the 350D by default.
If your going to be shooting sports/lots of low light, etc. then the 20D might be worth the jump even if your just starting out. Especially since the price on the 20D should drop noticably in the next two months with the 20D's replacement right around the corner.
Didn't mean to come off that hard... I can see how it was a bit much after reading through it again.
Posted 77 months ago.
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yeah its no problem. I seriously did take a very loooonnnnggg look at the 20D, and with this new price drop info your giving me ill probably look at it a long time again!
I completely agree you have to hold them in your hands before the sale. theres no way around it.
Posted 77 months ago.
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Yeah rumor is the 20D's replacement will be released at the PMA 2006 in Orlando Florida (Feb 26th - March 1st) which is 40 days from today.
The replacement is supposed to have a larger rear LCD display, up the mpixels again, and some other features. Doubt I will upgrade, but it should drop the price of the 20D which is an amazing camera, and with prices of used 20D's going probably a good bit under $1,000 it will be quite attractive I think.
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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fensterbme edited this topic 77 months ago.
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go with the Canon.
i'm a Nikon user with lots of lenses and accessories who looks jealously at the latest greatest Canon gear.
Posted 77 months ago.
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I'm looking @ the same choice right now. I've got all Nikon gear and lenses right now, so I'm leaning towards that. I've read a couple of reviews that say the D50 performs bettter than the D70s for minimal noise, and considering that it's a later model, I'm guessing that means that Nikon has improved their sensor and/or internal software between the D70 and the D50.
Keep in mind that the major camera companies launch new products at the PMA trade show and that's happening at the end of February. I am torn between the D70s, D50, or switching to Canon, and now the Sony R1 is a temptation, too. So I'm waiting until March to decide. I'll go with a brand new model, or enjoy a price drop on one of the cameras currently on the market. Just my 2 cents
Posted 77 months ago.
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personally, I would pick the nikon, but that's only because I'm already into the nikon glass, and it wouldn't make any sense for me to go canon at this point. my tipping point was the 60mm f/2.8 macro lens I got over christmas. I can't give that baby up... it's amazing! :) that said, I want a D200... because I'm a sucker for a pretty nikon... =D
as an aside, I would have to agree that holding the camera in your hands is the best way to decide whether or not it is the right camera for you. I think it all comes down to what feels best to you, and what you like the best. it's kinda like religion. whatever works for you :)
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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m00by edited this topic 77 months ago.
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Adrian, you actually missed a rather good rebate offer for the rebel (which may have been mentioned in a prior reply).
Secondly, congrats on whatever you purchase. I joined the SLR ranks and I am so very happy I did. I chose the 350D because:
1: rebate - with rebel and macro lens i'm getting a good amount back :).
2: I own an S60, and I can use the battery, so I have a 2nd battery :)
3: I've used canon before and the 350d is very familiar to me.
Best of luck in your decision and again, an early congrats :)
Posted 77 months ago.
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I'm also thinking about purchasing a Dslr. Most likely the Canon rebel XT. But the thing is that I have invested in a few Pentax lenses for my film slr, Is it worth it to purchase the *IST (Pentax DSLR) or get the Rebel, which seems to have a lot of great reviews.
Posted 77 months ago.
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With everything in this discussion I think I'm getting closer, first I will take everybodies advice and go to a shop and have a hold and try. You are right its so important how a camera feels i.e. where the functions are placed etc. Also I think I'm going to take a long-term view, I can change the camera back in the future but the lenses are the real choice and at the moment the Nikon lenses have the edge. We'll see...
Posted 77 months ago.
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For B&W work, I'd heavily lean to the XT/350D for it's in-camera B&W mode. While most in-camera B&W sucks, the XT (And the 20d which originated this feature) has a B&W mode which includes selectable colour filters, done at the processing level, which mimic the classic set of B&W filters. It works very well, especially if you shoot RAW+JPEG, because then you have the original RAW, which is inherently colour of course, and can be used if the auto conversion isn't suitable.
Other than that, try both cameras. You may find one (or both) unsuitable for you. I know that I couldn't work seriously with either camera, because of the poor viewfinder (I am very sensitive to viewfinder quality, but I shoot a lot of low-light and use manual focus a lot, which makes viewfinder size and brightness a big issue).
You may also want to consider the Pentax or Konica Minolta offerings. They're excellent, and both offer good viewfinders and better ergonomics than the XT or D50 IMHO.
Posted 77 months ago.
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I myself was caught between the same two cameras. So I just ordered the D70s due to it being more like my N80.
Posted 77 months ago.
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I looked at not just the Nikon and Canon but also the Olympus E500 and the Konica Minolta 5D. I bought the latter for several reasons: the built-in anti-shake system which makes every lens stabilised, the feel of the camera in use (especially the viewfinder brightness compared with the others, as Mawz says) and finally the cost with a reasonable quality kit lens.
I've had the camera a couple of weeks now and I'm very impressed. The anti-shake system works as advertised. Absolutely incredible getting sharp photos handheld at 1/3s exposures with the kit lens!
I should add that I've been a long time happy Canon owner/user (30+ years) so switching to Minolta when going to a DSLR was no trivial thing.
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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éric edited this topic 77 months ago.
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I went through this a little while ago and selected the 20D while a good friend selected the D70. We were both starting off relatively clean (meaning: we had no previous glass) so that particular issue was not a problem. After holding and shooting with both, neither one of us are unhappy with our selections, but we both wish we had things from the other camera as well. A couple of items we both agree on:
- The D70 has a MUCH quieter shutter than my 20D. Perhaps this is something specific with mine, but maybe others can pipe in on that grievance. If you are planning on taking candid shots or photos in quiet places, this could be an issue.
- the controls layout in the Canon is very well laid out and easier to learn than the layout in the Nikon. Even after he's taken nearly 8k shots, he still doesn't have the menus and controls as down on his camera as I did at half that number on mine (some may argue that it's an intelligence thing and he's dumb as a bag of rocks - but I'm a Canon bigot so it must be the camera ;) )
I know you started off the thread by discussing the Rebel vs the D50 and we've all been very helpful in spending your money by discussing the 20D vs D70 :) but hopefully it gives you some ideas on the types of things to look for when you have all of them in front of you.
Good luck and let us know how you end up deciding =)
PS - If you end up buying Canon - spend the additional ~$80 and pick up the 50mm/f1.8. You really just can't go wrong with that lens :). I'm not sure if there is something comparable on the Nikon side, from what I have seen / read - there isn't...is there?
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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HopeHubris edited this topic 77 months ago.
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@SilverOxide: Just an FYI... Nikon doesn't make it's sensor's better... Nikon waits for Sony to 'sell' a better CCD sensor.
Since Nikon hasn't done it's own sensor development it's at the mercy of the 3rd party component providers. In my opinion this is one of the reason Nikon continues to lag behind Canon.
Why I Choose Canon:
Nikon Thought Film Would be Around for a Long Time:
It's my opinion that Nikon seriously misjudged the market, and how fast Canon (and other companies) would push Digital. I think Nikon thought it would take years for real photo professionals to go digital, and that for 'serious' folks digital was just a novelty. So Nikon didn't jump in with both feet into the digital market at first.
Hard to Make Up for Lost Time:
The year or so that they initially dragged their feet has continued to haunt them, especially in such a new and quickly developing market segment. It's hard to make up that much lost time when Canon and other companies are working very hard/fast on digital technology and Canon is making it's own sensor's.
I'm a Nikon Traitor:
I grew up thinking that Canon was a second rate photo citizen and that Nikon is who all the real guys used. I used to own a Nikon SLR, but it's almost impossible to disagree that Nikon is not neck and neck with Canon, and in fact Canon is almost a full product release ahead of Nikon.
Nikon almost a Whole Product Release Behind:
For almost the last two years the Canon 20D is more or less the amateur enthusiast camera of choice (if a bag full of Nikon glass wasn't clouding your judgment), just now Nikon has a real product to complete with the 20D the D200 (which is very nice). But Canon is slated to replace the 20D in less than a month and a half, then Nikon is back where they were before, riding in the back seat while Canon has the edge.
Why It All Matters:
I know this is kind of a long winded tangent diatribe, but since buying an SLR camera is really about buying an SLR system... The companies history in the digital marketplace, current product offerings and future direction should be taken into consideration.
Most People Who are Starting with a Clean Slate choose Canon:
It is the exception that I hear someone who bought a Nikon DSLR after doing their research of Canon vs. Nikon DLSR's. Most of the friends I have who are currently shooting with a Nikon DLSR are doing so because they have a collection of Nikkor lenses that are hard to part with, and the fact they don't want to have to learn a whole new system.
In Summary:
All said, if you don't have any lenses already. I would go the Canon route, the Rebel XT is a great deal for the price and competes closer to the D70s than the D50.
Posted 77 months ago.
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I won't point out the errors in the above post here in this forum, except to say that they are legion.
I can't believe we're tolerating this sort of religious zeal on either side. Canon makes an excellent camera body and has a complete lens line and so does Nikon. Both are among the only companies to be profitable in the digital camera space last year.
For me, personally, I like the way Nikons are set up, but I won't begrudge someone buying a Canon.
The nice thing about cameras is that they aren't computers. Just because you chose Canon, it doesn't hurt me when I choose Nikon or someone else when choosing Minolta, Pentax, or Olympus.
To the original poster: don't believe the bullshit about how the 350D should be compared to the D70s and not the D50. In some ways, the D50 is a better camera than the D70s. I think if you go to the store and try them out, one of these cameras would definitely speak to you more.
Maybe you like Canon's two extra megapixels and two horizontally-oriented autofocus points, maybe you like the Nikon's color matrix metering and iTTL flash system. (Or maybe it's the bigger viewfinder in the Pentax *st, or the anti-shake in the Minolta Dynax, or the digital-specific compactness of Olympus's system.)
As for the two megapixels, this is an 15% increase in realized image resolution. To give you an idea, at 300dpi, a 6 megapixel Nikon shot can make a 10" print while a Canon retains that same resolution to be blown up to an 11.5" print. Most hyperfocal distance tables are set to 300dpi, so if you want a greater resolution in a 10" print, remember to recompute those before heading out. (I don't know if this resolution is a deal-killer—as a physicist, it wasn't for me—but there are those who say it is. If it makes them a happier photographer, who am I to denigrate?)
But don't buy the hype. None of these cameras are going to prevent you from taking a good photograph. And no single brand will automatically make you a better photographer either.
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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tychay edited this topic 77 months ago.
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Thank-you Tychay. Well said! You just saved me from going off on a technical rant. :-) But I use both a 350D and D70 on a regular basis, and the 2MP difference doesn't mean much. Without any brand-bashing, I'll just say that there's more to a good image than sensor size. Lens quality, camera software, RAW format, and various other factors contribute to the quality of the a digital image. And each camera has particular strenghts and short-comings. It depends on the shooting situation, and what the individual photographer deems to be important qualities in an image.
Posted 77 months ago.
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Everything I said was 'my opinion':
I stated everything as being 'my opinion' or 'how I see it', and I'll fully admit I don't understand everything about photography or all aspects of camera technology.
I was just listing what made me choose canon over nikon when I bought a system early this year. Right or wrong, that's the logic I used...
I completely agree a great image is more than just the camera body:
I completely agreed with tychay in the vast majority of people the camera is not going to be the limiting factor, it's the camera. I also agree with Silver Oxide's last comment that a good image is much more than the camera body, namely the lens/opics, software processing, etc. I also completely agree that the megapixel difference is much to do about nothing, I would glady trade lower MPixel's for lower ISO noise, etc.
I like lots of things about Nikon:
I also agree that Nikon does some things better than Canon and I do actually like the way Nikon's on camera controls work better (more intuative) than Canon's. I don't fault anyone who buy's a Nikon, I just said usually the people I see who buy Nikon's are already invested in the glass so it's cost prohibitive to change.
I agree it's not just a Canon vs. Nikon World:
I also agree that there are other good systems out there, and if you will likely only have a small collection of lenses it negates the whole lack of a large lens selection that partially drives the Nikon and Canon dominance in the marketplace. So the Minolta, Olympus and Pentax systems definately have their place.
That all said, do you disagree with the statement that Nikon was slow to really jump into the digital space and that they thought film would be around longer. And that that delay has put them behind to a certain extent?
Do you Disagree with my Assertions:
I guess do you disagree that Canon seems to be further ahead down the technology path than Nikon?
That said I think the D200 is very impressive and has definately showed me that Nikon while late to the dance indeed does have it's mind set on releasing great product.
Seriously, I'm not looking for some holy war type battle and I'm sure there are holes in my position, if I'm wrong correct me... I'm actually quite humble and will admit that lots of people know more than I... I just talk and type alot.
Posted 77 months ago.
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Yes I disagree with those assertions.
I'd say they were far more valid a few years ago when the Nikon dSLR line consisted of the D1X, D2H, and the D100, there was no i-TTL flash system, there were no DX lenses, and Canon applications to lens systems (wave motors and optical image stabilization) were just starting to filter to the Nikkor line.
But more than the opinions what I found objectionable were the errors in the post. I know a lot of them come from conventional wisdom, but this conventional wisdom is not based on fact.
For instance, Nikon has their own sensor chip design (JFET in the D2H and D2Hs), Fuji and Kodak also have their own chip designs and use Nikon F-mount systems—interesting sidebar, Kodak used to also have a dSLR back compatible with the Canon mount. Similarly, Canon also has to "wait" on Sony chip designs—the consumer digicam market, including Canon, is awash in Sony CCDs. Last year's CCD recall shows that. Also Sony and Samsung both have sensor design and fabrication facilities and are introducing bodies this year in conjunction with Minolta and Pentax. (Personally, I fail to see how your own chip fabrication is a strength. They can have different electronics (if CCD), optics (bayer/aa filters), and image processing software.)
In the end, we can all agree to disagree about opinion. For instance, while you and I might prefer the right-handed, “get out of your way” operation of a Nikon, I know many who prefer the bulletproof operation of a Canon. I think the dial navigation system in the Canon is very clever, and think it should have been included in the Digital Rebel line.
Another example, while the Nikon D200 beats the Canon EOS 20D down the spec sheet, it does not include any "scene" modes. Personally, I think this is a good thing. However, that makes it a bad camera for recommending to a casual photographer. Yes, there are such people who can afford this class of camera. (BTW, what Dru doesn't mention in his blog entry is that this person didn’t settle with a "kit" lens either, she got some Canon L optics to go along with that camera.)
Posted 77 months ago.
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That Nikon have their own sensor chip (JFET) is very new and not at all in the reach of a consumer looking for his first SLR, which is the subject of the thread. They are behind in this respect.
Talking about the DH2 here is like when i ask opinions for my first lenses and people talk about canon L glass...
Yes canon uses CCDs in the consumer models, just like everyone. Consumer models arent the subject of this thread.
Canon offers entry to intermediate consummers SLRs with canon manufactured CMOS sensors. This is a big plus that made me move their way. I actually have a nikon right now, but Nikon's CMOS type SLRs are simply out of reach to the average person.
I love nikon ergonomics. But as sexy as i find the D70 or D200, im just dissapointed it sits on a sony CCD.
Simple fact is the CCD is going out of style. CMOS is just faster and everyone, nikon included (JFET is CMOS type), is moving in that direction.
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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Nicolas* edited this topic 77 months ago.
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However, the Nikon D200 is a new model while the canon 20D is to be replaced in about a month.
This is what many are referring to when they say Nikon is about a year behind Canon in terms of the technology.
And Canon may use 3rd party sensors in their consumer P&S models, but that does not factor into this discussion really -the initial question referring to which SLR the potential purchaser should get.
Nikon is catching up though when it comes to the spec sheet, as you pointed out -however, they are releasing new models whose specs finally match or beat Canon's equivalent model which was released a year ago.
I think one more year will put them neck and neck in terms of the technology.
As for everything else... much of it is subjective, but pretty much everyone I know prefers the "feel" of a Nikon body over a Canon one.
Furthermore the difference in image quality is minimal when comparing equivalent nikon bodies to canon bodies -this much has been ascertained over and over again by various professionals and reviewers. Most of the difference will come from the type of lenses used.
And Canon already uses 2nd generation CMOS sensors in their SLR line up. I didn't know Nikon hadn't shifted to that technology yet.
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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'SeraphimC edited this topic 77 months ago.
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Ah, I misread. JFET is a type of CMOS sensor. I thought they used CMOS.
My apologies.
Posted 77 months ago.
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@sparklefantastic!: Who died and made you god of the thread? The original poster made a statement that Nikon has no fabrication facilities and implied that Canon never has to "wait" on a 3rd party sensor provider. He and you are entitled to your opinion about its relevance, but don't change the rules when faced with the fact that you are wrong.
I could go down this thread and point out similar errors in fact. Yes, we are all entitled to our interpretations and opinions about them.
Also I'm tired of this bullshit that a CMOS is inherently superior to CCD (or vice versa). There are strengths and weaknesses to both. Heck, they both operate by the same charge collection mechanism, the difference is that CMOS puts the processing on the photosite while CCD transports the electrons off the chip to a separate unit for processing.
CMOS strengths: cheaper, faster data collection, less power consumption
CCD strengths: flexible, lower theoretical noise, faster flash sync (currently)
(Now before you CMOS defenders get into a noise debate, please note that I said "theoretical.")
Here is another factual error. JFET is not a type of CMOS. JFET and CMOS are both active pixel type sensors (i.e. sensors where the processing is done on the photosite). The difference is the processing is done by a JFET (junction field effect transistor) instead of a two MOSFET transistors (CMOS = complimentary metal oxide semiconductor).
Whether or not this is relevant is beyond me. I never took the introduction to semiconductors course in college because my physics lab course got me out of that requirement. (I would guess that the JFET has lower shot noise and greater thermal noise and power consumption than a CMOS, which sort of makes a lot of sense for the D2H's intended market.)
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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tychay edited this topic 77 months ago.
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I'm starting to wish I'd never asked, maybe we all need to forget about technology for a while and get back to taking great photos, I still believe this can be done on any camera all you need is a great photographer pushing the button. Content and subject in my book are still the most important thing and what ever my choice it will come down to what I make of it.
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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Adrian Capps edited this topic 77 months ago.
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Second time you drop the fact your in physics. Thank you Dr.Tychay, we get it already. Are you done trying to assert alpha male status in a stupid thread?
We are only wrong because you choose to detract from the subject. The original comment was to underline nikon SLR line has 3rd party sensors and canon does not. Its that simple.
Im 95% pretty sure the guy asking the original question will not purchase a D2H.
Arguing over minute technicalities aside, the JFET is based on CMOS tech, and it is a type of CMOS.
Nikon makes good cameras, we arent saying they are crap. We're offering the original poster personnal opinions and experiences to aid his purchase of an entry level SLR.
If you have cool stuff to add about nikon, you can go ahead and do that.
If you just want to start a technical pissing contest, please take it elsewhere doctor.
Posted 77 months ago.
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Does Anyone Argue that Nikon is better:
I think it's interesting that Nikon fans get all upset when they hear people talk about Nikon being behind.
In their rebuttal they go on and on about how Nikon's are 'equal' or very close, etc. to Canon. But I never hear people talk about how the Nikon blows away Canon, etc. never, not once.
True Nikon might have some features in some camera's, etc. that the competing Canon product doesn't offer, etc. But I hear nobody asserting that Nikon is ahead. The best arguements/points of the Nikon users I hear tend to end up in; "it's close, it's about feel, etc." While those statements are true, they seem like they are trying to 'agree to a tie'.
I would think if it was really so close, etc. that there would be a good number of people talking about how Canon is behind, or that Canon isn't that good for this or that type of photography, etc. But I really don't hear that...
I have a friend who has a fleet of D2X's who thinks hard of switching to Canon:
I have a good friend who is a professional photographer (wedding photographer, who pulls $12-15K a wedding and is shooting a ton of weddings at that price), he's shot Nikon for years, and currently has three Nikon D2X bodies, and a whole collection of Nikkor lenses, flashes, etc. While he likes the way the Nikon's feel, etc. and that he's happy with his image quality for the most part. He admits that he thinks about switching to Canon because he's had some spotty problems with his D2X's and admits that he think's Canon is ahead. It's just a huge change for him to make. One of the factors in his thinking is that doesn't Nikon offers full frame cameras.
I think Nikon makes a very quality product, I like the feel of Nikon.. I think the D50 is a good camera. But...
Nikon vs. Canon is a Holy War Question:
Obviously this is a holy war, much like Ford Vs. Chevy, Windows vs. Mac, etc. let your output be the judge of your skills, etc. That said I fully admit I'm the weak link in my camera system. But that's not what this thread was about, it was Rebel XT/350D vs. D50 which will almost always end up as a Nikon vs. Canon thing, because it is...
Posted 77 months ago.
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@sparklefantastic!: I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. It isn't my fault that you were the one spouting off falsehoods and I called you on it.
My original response answered the original posters directly, I don't feel I denigrated any brand choice in that post. You and other Canon bigots took this into a classic "Nikon v. Canon Holy War" with things like: "Do you Disagree with my Assertions:
I guess do you disagree that Canon seems to be further ahead down the technology path than Nikon? "
I responded politely that I did disagree and pointed out a single counterfactual in his reasoning. My point was that there is conventional wisdom being spouted off as fact; that one could go point for point, but that was pointless.
"Arguing over minute technicalities aside, the JFET is based on CMOS tech, and it is a type of CMOS." Stating this doesn't change the fact that you are wrong on both counts. 1) JFET predates CMOS. 2) While they serve the same purpose (to do on-chip signal processing), they approach it from opposite directions. 3) it is the difference of approach that has demonstrable tradeoffs (higher power, higher noise on longer exposure, less noise on shorter exposures).
@fensterbme: “Does Anyone Argue that Nikon is better:” Yes I do, but not on this forum. Here I argue that they are different, not better, and that those differences are more pronounced if you look outside Nikon and Canon at Olympus, Pentax, and Minolta. Because deep down I know that my weaknesses as a photographer will show long before my camera's weaknesses come to light.
I like to think of a modern dSLR like a titanium driver in golf. They don't inherently hit any further than than a steel or wood one, instead the new technology means that bad shots are less penalizing (and thus the designer can increase the shaft length by an inch or two to add distance).
“I have a friend who has a fleet of D2X's who thinks hard of switching to Canon” Good for your friend, I think any of us would love the ability to own both the Nikon D2X and the Canon 5D or 1DsMk2n like the Steinmuellers do. In fact, from my anecdotal experience, most professional wedding photographers who shoot digital seem to be Canon people. Certainly if you shoot in the documentary style, there are advantages to having a full frame sensor (shallow depth of field). But unless his name is Joe Buissink, I don't think a single testimonial is relevant. As sparklefantastic! has resorted to saying, none of this has anything to do with the D50 and the 350D.
Posted 77 months ago.
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penguin_dove [deleted] says:
i have the cannon, and i love it.
Posted 77 months ago.
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I just bought the nikon d50 today and its great!
Posted 77 months ago.
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@ high and mighty Dr.Tychay
Resorted? What the hell does that mean? If by resorted you mean that all along ive been saying that the highest grade cameras werent relevant to this discussion after you insisted in talking about them, then yea, i guess i resorted.
Your little tongue in cheek comments are pretty lame. Then you turn around and pretend to not understand why people are a little dry with you.
Seriously this thread was fine before you came in with your need for intellectual assertion and gratification.
Posted 77 months ago.
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I'd just like to thank everyone for this highly entertaining and informative discussion on consumer dSLRs. There's nothing quite like a good Nikon vs Canon debate!
@penguin dove and LeaveTheLightOn: you both have very lovely pictures posted...
Posted 77 months ago.
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I think the only way this debate will ever be resolved is by the "Two Men Enter, One Man Leaves" Competition.
Tychay, Sparkle, choose your preferred weapons and step into the ring....
I'd watch out though, Sparkle, I think a Nikon will leave a serious dent in the noggin.
And tychay, Make sure to keep you eyes closed when Sparkle flashes that ridiculously powerful canon flash at you.
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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'SeraphimC edited this topic 77 months ago.
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@Adrian2006 - so what are your thoughts now on buying a camera?
Posted 77 months ago.
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SilverOxide...my thoughts now see nine posts back. I'm taking up painting after hearing this...so whats the best brush, the or the.
Posted 77 months ago.
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I based my decision on how they felt to me in the shop.
I don't think you would notice any difference in the pictures you took, but maybe the controls and operation of one will feel better than the other.
Also the one I picked had a much lower price. I like the look of the Minolta 5D, having had a minolta before, but this came on sale after I bought mine.
So try them out and simply pick the one that feels best to you I would say.
Posted 77 months ago.
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If you are all new with digital SLR,you can easily pick one of those two cameras and just enjoy using it. If you already have (for example) canon lenses,it's wise to buy the canon and combine.
I have a 350D myself, and i'm very happy with it. It works rather well with old canon lenses, and Tamron also made a very good 18-200mm lens, specific for the digital canon SLR. This is a stunning combination for all-round digital photographing.
But as I and many others said, if you're all new you won't be disappointed buying the canon or the nikon.
Posted 77 months ago.
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any digital SLR kicks ass :D
but i should go canon,... has beter digital reputation atm
Posted 77 months ago.
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@Adrian2006 - |trust that you'll find the right camera for you and enjoy using it.
Posted 77 months ago.
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"k. I'm taking up painting after hearing this...so whats the best brush, the or the. "
Ok, so if you plan on painting with the nikon, make sure to have the nikkor 50mm lens on, otherwise the paint won't have the same lustre once it dries.
But Canon is at least a year ahead of Nikon in terms of bristle technology, and the flash will definitely help the paint dry more quickly, although the celerity with which it dessicates will cause the paint to desquamate ever so slightly.
Good luck in your choice of painting utensil, and just remember, no matter which one you pick, you are wrong.
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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'SeraphimC edited this topic 77 months ago.
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350D is very light, produces superb images, but is small if you have big hands and the viewfinder is very small, and the body feels a little plasticy.
The Nikon D50 is better built, has better kit lens but if you buy more lenses, they are more expensive than Canon's.
For an overall, good camera, with no dreams of adding gear, the Nikon D50 is a good idea, or if you can stretch to it, the Canon 20D.
Posted 77 months ago.
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Seraphim
well thought out response, but i disagree with you on a few matters...
I would have to say that the Nikkor 100mm is the true device for the Da Vinci in each of us.
In regards to the dessicant...go for the ones that come in the bags for your Logitech QuickCamPro...they seem to work best for both oil and water and the occasional semi-gloss.
other than those minor quibbles - (and the fact that you should choose DutchBoy instead of either of these) - you just cant go wrong.
or right for that matter...
aww hell - just spend it all on Gentleman Jack and enjoy it. ;)
damn you Seraphim - now you brought me back to reality
Posted 77 months ago.
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Holy ccrap Batman ! This has turned into a dSLR holy war ... Anyway, since they r to great machines, almost identical ( spare me with your zealot regards, i own a 350D, along with another film slr from canon, but im not afraid to assert that i could buy a nikon ... a minolta ... even a samsung god damnit! altough i would prefer to buy one of those Sigma new ones :p but 3k€ =| ) "But why did u bought a Canon?" u may ask. Its fairly simple, they were on sale :P ( and i already had the lenses ). "AHHH gotcha! But u already had Canon gear u .. u .. zealot!" u could say. But that also has an explanation, the canon oficial dealer is near my house, nikon is not =)
So here's my 2c, just choose wich ever dealer 'lives' near u! The money ur saving on trips/gas u can spend them in glass!
Posted 77 months ago.
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Ok forget my remark about minolta =p Quoting DPhoto,
"Konica Minolta Announces Plans To Quit Camera Business". So u Konica-Minolta users, say welcome to your new Sony overlords.
Posted 77 months ago.
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@akiraidho: as a Minolta owner, the sale (if you can call it that: it's still unclear what is happening and who will actually make subsequent cameras) to Sony makes close to zero difference. The lenses I need or want are there and I intend to keep my existing SLR body for years as I waited until I could get what met what I forsee as my requirements for a long time.
Posted 77 months ago.
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It's not that unclear, Official Press Release here konicaminolta.com/releases/2006/0119_03_01.html, and for u, who already have a KonicaMinolta set up may not make a difference, but for who is still searching to buy a new digital camera makes ALOT of difference ( wich is - or was - the main point of this discussion ), wich makes u feel more secure ? A brand thar is actively in the market or a brand that is retracting from it ? At least i do not want to spend money on something that has an unclear close future =) UNLESS of course u want to hv one copy for your personnal colection ;)
Posted 77 months ago.
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My first "real" 35 mm camera was a Canon AE-1 given to me by my father. I was sorely tempted to buy my first digital 35 mm when I saw the first Rebel, but since I had to save my pennies for a year, ended up going with the D70. By that time my dad (who nearly disowned me for buying Nikon) bought a 20D, which I confess, I really wish that I had purchased when I saw his. I love my D70 except for a few things, I love the feel of it in my hand, I love how intuitive the menu system is, and I have been more than happy with my images.
My dad has just purchased a Canon 5D and I'm about to get a Nikon D200. The wars continue between us (friendly holy wars, he refers to me as his son, the Nikon man) and I'm making my second decision to go with Nikon. Part of that is based on glass (I've got three lenses now) and part of it is based on some hard-to-describe Nikon lust. The truth is, back when I had a Canon AE-1, I always felt jealous of guys with Nikons and the irony of the "status change" that is now evident (it seems like more "professionals" (to my anecdotal observation, choose canon these days) makes it kind of funny. But you can't teach an old dog new tricks. When Canon releases the 20D replacement in February I'll just plug my ears and say "nah nah nah nah nah...". What else can you do.
Don -- sticking with Nikon despite pressure.
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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wickenden edited this topic 77 months ago.
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You know, if you are going to shoot a lot of digital b&w -- check out the FujiFinePix S9000. Why?
1. wide zoom range
2. you view your image in B&W thru the EVF. Slap a red filter on, you immediately see the effect. Really is great.
I used an S7000 for a year, and took thousands of images with it. Used it in B&W mode in manual mode.. always worked great. I do have a D70s, and passed along the S7000 to my daughter, and she loves it. The S9000 incorporates a lot of improvements, icludeing more MP and real manual focus and manual zoom mode.
Posted 77 months ago.
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@akiraidho: sorry, let me explain. What is not clear is whether KM will continue making cameras (for Sony to sell) or not. The press release is a little ambigious. In any case, there are some that argue that this sale to Sony actually makes the brand stronger and a better competitor to Canon & Nikon.
I'm not sure and therefore I agree partly with you about what prospective buyers might think and worry about.
At the end of the day, the purchase of such a camera really should be done by the person actually holding each of the potential purchases in his/her own hands (which is one reason I went off the Canon despite my leanings that way because the camera just felt too small for my hands).
Posted 77 months ago.
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Where do you live?
If it's anywhere near a large camera shop, such as B&H, they might let you rent the camera for a couple days...
When I get my DSLR (believe it or not I'm still using my Nikon FA and only a Canon SD400) this is what I will do...
Good luck!
Posted 77 months ago.
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Can you stand another opinion? If yes, I love my D50. I bought the body only and ended up getting the 50mm b/c it was the recommended lens for a class I was taking, and that's the lens I use most of the time. Also, something my teacher pointed out is that the D50 does not have a DOF preview button, and he would not recommend getting a camera without one. Now, I've asked around and it seems people don't really use theirs, but I thought it was an important point to pass on.
My only advice after 6 months of using the camera is: If you're serious about your photography, get a better camera than you think you need. You'll grow into it.
Hope this helps!
Posted 77 months ago.
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go with the Rebel XT. If the size is a problem just get a battery grip.
Posted 77 months ago.
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I made my choice by comparing the cameras by the photos they took at pbase.com/cameras/canon/eos_350d (this function to view by camera and lens would be great for Flickr).
I looked at photos and lighting conditions that matched what I was looking for. I went for the Canon.
I'm pleased with the camera. I still wonder about Nikon, but only for the lenses, from what I've seen the glass on the telephotos looks better, but then there's a premium to pay. It wasn't a consideration at the time, but it may be worth your while looking at how much the accessories will be, if price is a consideration.
Originally posted 77 months ago.
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antinbath edited this topic 77 months ago.
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