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Wow, that is really sad but explains something to me. I had added a photo last night and was shocked at the response that I had this morning. I had 97 views, 8 faves, and 27 comments but it didn't show up in interestingness where as lesser responses had. If we have been blacklisted then shame on this organization because in fact I think that this is a very good set-up for seeing what is liked or not without the deck being stacked ( sorry, had to use the pun). Is there anyone that one can direct their concern to?
Posted 38 months ago.
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I don't think it's blacklisted as such. I think the newer interestingness algorithms have a heavy slant towards images that revieve lots of comments that don't come from group activities. At one point it was just a problem that you posted to lots of groups. The new algorithms seem to ignore comments and faves that are generated in scoring and comments groups. The talks around flickr seem to indicate that the current "secret" to getting into interestingness is posting in group discussions and not in scoring groups.
but hey... the result is all the same. 4 aces isn't helping your interestningness score.
Posted 38 months ago.
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hehehe...I am a slave to Explore/Interestingness :-) I find it interesting that 4 aces has been "blacklisted" but other comment groups (read 1-2-3 ..) haven't. It has always been a random algorithm but I actually enjoyed investigating this a little deeper this time...I know..sad :-)
Posted 38 months ago.
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any one for a test?
Posted 38 months ago.
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Yes, very very sad, and may explain what happened since the beggining of October when the algoritm was changed.
Interestingness has been changed continually since it was introduced. Putting an image in the Delete Me group used to be a guarantee it would hit Explore, until interestingess was tuned to eliminate that unfair advantage and correct the resulting distortion to Explore.
Posted 38 months ago.
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@teotwawki...sure the *formula* changes but deleteme group is still on the radar..
www.flickr.com/photos/69399477@N00/279042359/ on pg 8.
If you can cop the deleteme *critique* I suppose u deserve to go on interestingness :-)
Posted 38 months ago.
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I was just going to post a thread on this group indicating it has been black listed. ;-)
Look at this thread for comments by silentobserver:
flickr.com/groups/interestingness500/discuss/721575942381...
Posted 38 months ago.
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Funnily enough, I joined this group* after an argument with someone who bet me I couldn't get the next photo I uploaded into explore simply by sticking it into the right groups (as he had done.)
He lost.
* I stayed because it's good
Posted 38 months ago.
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Thanks for that @3rd Foundation - interesting...its a huge thread...I never knew people cared so much for Explore ;-0
Originally posted 38 months ago.
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ozczecho edited this topic 38 months ago.
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Yes, some of the Admins have had some discussion on this topic over the past few days. I, myself, ran a test to see what would happen to a photo (not posted to any scoring/comments/faves groups) which had been in a stable position 50 - 80th in Explore for about 6 days, if I then posted it to 4 Aces. Before posting, I checked one last time that the photo was still in Explore (it was, at 60th), posted to 4 Aces and in the next 5 minutes gave out my comments and Aces. I checked Scout immediately afterwards and , poof!, the photo was gone, and has not returned.
Having said this, does it affect the way in which I want to participate in Flickr. Not really. Although having a photo in Explore can be cool, I really like the fun and comraderie (usually!!!) of this group and will continue to play here. If getting into Explore is your thing, perhaps you need to to think twice about posting here, It seems it's that one compulsory Ace given to photo immediately preceding yours that is the issue with the Explore folks. We could change that particular rule but, for me, that's just playing a game. Again, if playing a strategy to get into Explore is the objective, there are many other ways to do this without requiring the 4 Aces group. I'm interested in your thoughts.
Posted 38 months ago.
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Yep, i think this group has definitely been blacklisted. (though poker, global village, smileys, 123 seem fine, so weird!) Who knows why????? So weird, especially since 4aces consistently includes the best images on flickr. I too did my own little test of this theory, and discovered that everyone of my images in 4 aces prior to October has been dropped from explore, (25ish images) and none i have added to 4 aces since October began made it to Explore at all. It is extra weird because you can post in the 10 for 10 group where you receive 10 guaranteed comments, and still get on explore. This is a great group, and i know explore shouldn't really matter, but so many awesome images from this pool miss out, which is a shame.
Anyway, to the admin, keep up the great work on 4 aces!
Posted 38 months ago.
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यश 
says:
I think the number of contacts a person has or the number of people that call him a contact also has an effect as to how many favs or views and comments are required to make it to the explore. I`ve read on a blog a while back that for some people, explore page would not be possible even after 20 favs while for others, only 5 favs would do..
Posted 38 months ago.
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I've had eight in explore at the same time until recently.
Seven out of eight have dissappeared: all seven were in this group, the one still in explore wasn't.
Still can't figure out why having your photo chosen by a faceless, emotionless computer algorithm is so important to everyone: the fact that I'm keeping tabs on Scout must mean that I'm tarred with the same brush!
Posted 38 months ago.
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@Rick E Dick - yeah I think the admins should look into the rule change (ie not forcing people to comment on the next image) and then notify the secret flickr hierarchy.
I have already seen a couple of my good contacts leave (not post to ) this group because it kills the *potential* exposure on Explore.
I have found 4 aces to be quite a good feedback mechanism for some of my shots. I have also seen some great images go through here. I feel that the more people that find out about this behaviour of Explore the quality of images in this group will fall....just my opinion.
Its a bit ironic that having a hand full of aces means you lose :-)
Posted 38 months ago.
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I am very sad to read that there seems to be a bias against this group. It's a shame as I find the standard of pictures submitted here to be very high.
I like most here seem to have been affected by the new algorithm, but that certainly wont stop me posting here, or to my other groups.
Posted 38 months ago.
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I found this over in Flickr Poker:
This quote from silentobserver (flickr staff) reveals the type of groups that reduce interestingness:
Q: it is comment groups too not just scoring groups-right?
A: Only groups that force people to comment/fave on certain photos with no choice, are affected by latest algorithm changes.
Originally posted 38 months ago.
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Kenny Maths edited this topic 38 months ago.
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I think the admins must give this careful thought before changing the rule about the first obligatory ace. Why? This rule is a feature, though not unique, it can be found in other groups as well, that guaranteed you a comment when you posted here. Keep this feature and you keep the ability to apply checks and balances. Remove this feature and you may get embraced by Explore again. So what's it going to be?
Another thought. The admins of this group didn't really hold a vote when they first set out the rules. Are they going to get the pulse of the users this time before thinking about any change to the rules?
For whatever it's worth, these are my thoughts to the admins. Don't touch the rule to the obligatory first ace, unless you can find a better or Explore-friendly way to guarantee an ace to the poster. Don't poll users in the group to gauge what's a popular course of action to take. Determine what's best for keeping the integrity, fun, competitiveness, quality of the group intact. Screw Explore.
Note to admins: you may expunge the last comment if you want.
Posted 38 months ago.
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I have always liked this group for the random choosing and never much liked the forced vote on the next picture. But I came because I thought the quality was high and because comments were supposed to be included with the Ace. I would prefer to see the forced vote gone so as to continue getting the high quality of photos coming in. I am sure that with all the grease monkey widgets out there, the group can be monitored for people making comments instead of just dumping and running. I don't live or die by the explore recognition but I must admit that it thrills me to get one in there. And it stings a little to have one ignored because I put it in the "wrong" group. Just my thoughts.
Posted 38 months ago.
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Well, what could be suggested by the admins to the flickr staff is this: Instead of banning the group completely from Explore, the algorithm can be coded to discount i.e. not consider, comments originating from 4 Aces. But, if the photograph meets the criteria of views, favorites, comments, etc after discounting comments from 4 Aces then it should be considered for a place in Explore.
Posted 38 months ago.
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I'm not going to let Explore run my life. I like the recognition, but there are so many different aspects to Flickr. Like others, I had a number of regular Explore photos dropped with the new algorithm, and I have had no new pictures in Explore since then either. As an experiment, I may delete one of my older, previously popular pictures from this pool, and see i it comes back.
Posted 38 months ago.
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I posted a photo which was number two on my own "interestingness" list I then saw this discussion thread so immediately deleted my photo (none were after mine). Now the same photo is number 14 on my own list!! I shall re-post it because I don't really care but kind of strange.
Posted 38 months ago.
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I read in another thread that any group that forces posters to either comment, view or fav other photos in the pool has been given lower emphasis on the interestingness calculation. So the comments, views and favorites still count, but not as much as those from regular groups.
Posted 38 months ago.
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यश
says:
My photo that has the most views favs and comments is second on my interestingness ranking. probably because its a member of more "must comment" groups like 4 aces and score and comment 10 before yours etc etc.. so from now on, I`ll keep my best photos away from groups in hope for an "explore pic".
Posted 38 months ago.
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the only trouble with blacklisting groups like these is that the world can miss out on some outstanding shot,s
I feel that explore should be to show the best Flikr has to offer
and it needs to find a better way of doing this
Posted 38 months ago.
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I see their point though. It makes sense to rank "unsolicited" comments/views/favorites much higher than those that are required due to pool submission.
Posted 38 months ago.
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I am not a fan of being forced to comment on a picture I might not necessarily appreciate. I didn't mind it in 4 aces because it was only 1 comment out of 4. In a group like "I WANT 5" or "Score Me" it was much worse..I think it was a bit drastic blacklisting this group when only 25% of the comments are forced...Its a pity because a lot of quality pics went through here...
Posted 38 months ago.
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catmadogma [deleted] says:
Interestingness is a crock, I had one make it with 20 views and 3 faves today. I made the top 10 on Explore with a cute throw away picture it meant nothing. There is only one group that means any thing, If you make the MagicDonkey then you have made the grade, it takes a true Quality shot to get in and my partner makes the final decisions on all invited images even mine. There are levels upon levels there. It is an honor to make that group. It is being blogged and we are getting exposure, check it out and see the Quality that it offers. Explore is a crock, it means says nothing about your Quality!
Carolyn
Posted 38 months ago.
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Let's face it, loyalty aside, the pool will be diminished. People who know will save their best for other groups. Big Shame. This group has always been one of my favourites.
Posted 38 months ago.
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Carolyn , 100% correct. No one said only quality pics make it to Explore...what Explore does give you though is exposure. IMHO, say out of 10 pics on Explore, 6 are really stunning 2 are OK and 2 you scratch your head about....
Posted 38 months ago.
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remove the requirement to ace the picture to the right and the problem will go away..
4 aces, 2 to the first page, one to page 2, one to page 3..
Posted 38 months ago.
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I cruise explorer and 4 aces often , inviting outstanding images to my colour groups and have the sneeking suspicion they are being handpicked for explore to a degree.
Theres just a whole lot of cute rabbits....more rabbits than there should be. Sure its a female choosing cuteness.
Have also seen many images from this group there, as they catch my eye as being seen and invited from there.
Explore is more like a crossection of Flick pics rather than "the best". May be the best from a certain individule but theres some hurtin pics there too. This group has regular posters on a certain style or venue and think its more a case of them limiting landscapes, flowers etc and getting a balance of great variety. Clicking the pages i think they do a very good job on both high quality and great variety, pretty tough thing to do.
The end result of explore is to see a lot of different work, not gain fame and a zillion comments for dominating artists. Actually its my favorite place cause theres no pics there posted to 4 trillion groups. Last night i hit a pic here that took 4 minutes to load on dsl. The more groups the longer the load time and makes me pretty irate, like how many slurpy comments and views u need?
Posted 38 months ago.
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I agree with ? marc_I'esperance.
Posted 38 months ago.
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i never realized there was so much drama and politics. "The Algorithm" sounds almost Orwellian to me.
interesting to learn.
but the photos here are still beautiful!!
Posted 38 months ago.
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catmadogma [deleted] says:
Hey, I am the second highest poster to this group, I love it and I am going to keep posting here and the algorithm is a joke, MagicDonkey is the place I want to get in, Explore is a joke, I just but two in here this is a good group, I love Aces.
Posted 38 months ago.
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This is a very interesting thread. In several months on Flickr, I always wondered how to get pictures included in Explore. Now I know that some of my pictures may have been discounted for reasons other than artistic inferiority, I feel much better.
Posted 38 months ago.
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i agree
almost all my photos in explore(about 15) are posted in 4-ace.
they are all disapear,and never come back.
i have a photo in top20 on 10/30
after i post in 4-ace,it disapear in explore
Posted 38 months ago.
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as already mentioned, it's the requirement to comment on a picture regardless of it's merit (first ace - picture to your right). this means the algorithm counts this group as a "forced comment" group, which skews the interestingness factor by generating comments on shots simply by being put in the pool. the fact that the remaining 3 comments are on any pic should temper that discounting, but apparently it doesn't.
so many pools are dump and run types, with very little commenting going on. even some very high quality image groups are like that i have noticed. comments groups are valuable when the comments left are because your photo was chosen for commenting by the person browsing the pool. it lets us know when we are 'hitting the target' with our photography.
btw, all my previous submissions to 4 aces which had entered explore have dropped out and not returned, and only when i gave up posting here did my new pics return to explore.
aces is a great group, with very high quality pics, which is why i enjoyed posting here.. the competition was tough and i like that. it's really a shame about the discounting of the group. i suggested a simple change in a posting above, but the group founder might think it's too radical a shift, or might not be concerned about the "explorability" of the group.
Posted 38 months ago.
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first off, i think the flickr folks design the interestingness algorithm in a manner to prevent people from flguring it out... so it's probably kinda pointless trying :-)
but since we will try anyway...
images can come and go into the explore pages pretty quickly from what i've seen. i had one that was in the top 20 and in less than 2 days it was gone completely even though i hadn't added it to any more groups and was still getting comments.
if you look through the explore pages most of the images are pretty good, so their algorithms can't be that bad ; ) i think the best way to constantly have photos in explore is to contantly be taking good shots, be friendly, and develop a following.
Posted 38 months ago.
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...and don't post here :-)
Posted 38 months ago.
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Just chiming in that I've noticed 4 Aces does seem to keep photos out of Explore which is too bad as this is probably one of my overall favorite groups on Flickr. I will keep posting here, screw that mind-bender of trying to get every photo on Explore but it is a bummer that they have put such a primacy on what groups you choose to share your photos with.
Originally posted 38 months ago.
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Fort Photo edited this topic 38 months ago.
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यश
says:
hey group admins please take note and change the rules for good. I`m waiting for that day to post more images to this group.
Posted 38 months ago.
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the strange thing is that you can post in this group and get one or no comments- so why should Explore bother. "Total Exposure" is a different matter, where you are likely to get 20-50 comments even if your photos is rubbish!
Don't change your rules- this is a fun concept!
Originally posted 38 months ago.
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Peli Cans edited this topic 38 months ago.
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peli cans, you are guaranteed *at least one* comment from this group, from the person who posts after you. if the rules are followed that is..
if you don't get any more than that.. then the photo just isn't as interesting as the others on the page i guess..
i am hoping for a rule change. the great photos in this group deserve to have a shot at being on explore.
Posted 38 months ago.
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...@marc, agree 100% with your sentiments...
Posted 38 months ago.
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Why isn't this happening to A Class? That's a forced comments group. Or is it but they don't realise it yet?
Originally posted 38 months ago.
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viacreativa edited this topic 38 months ago.
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OK fellow admins.... we have received a cross section of views to the questions I raised two weeks ago. It appears that opinions are divided as to whether (1) we should just ignore the Explore/Interestingness bias against groups requiring comments to specific photos, like Aces, or (2) change the "first Ace" rule to allow photos posted in Aces to have a chance to make it to explore. I didn't start Aces and feel any decision should be left to the originators of the group. Mr Geoff? I dont want to put you on the spot but maybe you would like to comment.
Posted 38 months ago.
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I was very surprise to learn about the effect of certain groups on the fact that a particular picture goes to explorer or not. Now I want to share a recent experience. I posted an image and put it in Deleteme Uncensored. I got some favs and the image went to Explore. It started around #100 and started going up steadily up to #62. After that I post it in the "comment and fav" group that does NOT require to comment and/or fav a particular picture. Minutes later, my picture is out of Explore even though I've been getting a few other favs. Hopefully this will contribute to the discussion.
Originally posted 38 months ago.
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josdiiri edited this topic 38 months ago.
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Hello,
I've just readed this topic with much interest and so i decided to verify something...
I compared my last "scout posters" with all photos i uploaded in the "four aces" pool and i noticed that none of these photos were in explore whereas some of them had already been very well classified in "interestingness".
Now all these photos disappeared (suddenly) from explore. I think that it's very curious and i think that the group must be blacklisted.
Posted 38 months ago.
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Hey everyone! Sorry, I have been out of state on business for two weeks.
I have tried asking the Flickr Heads about this issue, but I have gotten zero response from them.
I am starting a fresh thread on this topic so we can all weigh in with our opinions. Please find the thread called "BLACKLISTED!! What to do??" and continue your commentary there.
Thanks,
- Mr Geoff
Posted 38 months ago.
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