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"Private Property" - buskers / street entertainers etc are being excluded
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As recorded here:
www.flickr.com/photos/obenson/4112573473/in/pool-23702100...
We witnessed the talented busker Andy Liszewski being turned away by a member of the Southgate Security Staff on Sunday morning.
He was told that the centre is "private property" and he should move to Southgate Street.
The Security Man was clearly sent by someone (who was talking to him on his radio) rather than using his 'initiative'.
One of Bath's strengths, an important part of what gives it its unique, vibrant, character, is the activities that go-on on its streets and in its squares. Whatever you think of them, a large part of that vibrancy and character comes from the wide range of performers / buskers / charity workers / Big Issue sellers etc. (even beggars and drunks?) that occupy those streets, during the day and evening.
The owners of Southgate may like to think the streets within the new centre are "private property" but the public has access to them, they were referred to as 'public streets' and 'public open space' in the literature and planning documents.
I think the owners and management company are making a big mistake trying to restrict the activities that take place there. As they demonstrated by employing the Natural Theatre Co to mark the opening day, street performers actually have the ability to draw the crowds. If for no other reason than the centre will stand out and fail to integrate itself with the rest of Bath then the decision to 'Ban Buskers' should be overturned.
Originally posted at 10:43AM, 19 November 2009 PDT
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analogueandy edited this topic 31 months ago.
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I think the owners and management company are making a big mistake ...
Me too. I never cease to marvel at the lack of common sense shown by people who think they are businessmen.
Posted 31 months ago.
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If the new centre's streets are private, does that mean that the council is not responsible for any aspects of them?
Posted 31 months ago.
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There's a designated "performance area" within the open space of the scheme, which has been in the plans for a long time. It is marked on the paving as a circle, and was even mentioned in one of the recent news website videos as being for performance.
I don't know what the licensing laws are for busking in the city in general, but it's possible that Andy Liszewski was asked to stop because he hadn't worked out official permission, or something daft along these lines, rather than because busking will be banned altogether. I can kind of see the point if they have a designated performance area for people licensed to use it, it's probably easiest for them to say "no" to performance in all other areas within Southgate than to try and explore more subtle ways of allowing it.
Anyway, hopefully this isn't a matter we'll need to get too worried about! I'm fairly confident that busking won't be completely banned in Southgate.
If the new centre's streets are private, does that mean that the council is not responsible for any aspects of them?
It's a funny one. I wonder who will be responsible for cleaning them. If they ever become really messy, I'm sure that many people will perceive it as being the council's fault. Watch the letters in the Chronicle!
Posted 31 months ago.
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Here is the Performance Area Giles is referring to. Outside the entrance to Boots.
Posted 31 months ago.
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I don't know what the licensing laws are for busking in the city in general, but it's possible that Andy Liszewski was asked to stop because he hadn't worked out official permission,
It's a common misconception that buskers and street entertainers need some form of licence to perform in Bath (or anywhere else) as explained here they don't. I've even seen it reported that some people think (wrongly) that the Council pays them to perform!
On the one hand I'm pleased to hear they have set aside a specific 'performance area' but on the other, for the reasons above, I would still be against any attempt by Multi or MadisonSoho (the management company) to use this as an attempt to control or 'licence' the 'performances' they allow to take place within the centre.
Re. street cleaning - yes, the management company employ their own cleaner (who I've seen wondering around almost constantly picking up cigarrette butts and scraping up chewing gum) -
Southgate may end up cleaner and more controlled than the rest of Bath. I can see why Multi and the management company would want it that way, but do we?
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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analogueandy edited this topic 31 months ago.
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Personally, a part of the reason I visit Bath maybe six times a year is the "wide range of performers / buskers" mentioned above.
It would be a shame to slowly "sanitise" the city so that it became just another sterile shopping zone. I don't visit Bath because it has a big Boots the Chemist -- I can go to Boots in Bournemouth!
For example, when I visit near Christmas, I hope to see some impromptu carol singers, as per usual!
Originally posted 31 months ago.
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Paul Russell99 edited this topic 31 months ago.
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Speaking of Christmas, I guess all of this means that Southgate will be on its own as far as festive decorations are concerned?
Posted 31 months ago.
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There is some involvement from Southgate, as reported here:
www.thisisbath.co.uk/news/Plea-motorists-Nicolas-Cage-vis...
I have a meeting with Simon Pullen, the manager for the centre, on Monday 30th.
I will raise these matters (apart from the Christmassy ones) with him, in addition to seeking permission for myself.
Posted 30 months ago.
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Thanks Robin, I've emailed MadisonSoho too.
Let us know how you get on.
Originally posted 30 months ago.
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analogueandy edited this topic 30 months ago.
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perhaps if the buskers were allowed in it wouldnt feel so "sterile and cold"
Posted 30 months ago.
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I've just had the meeting. The centre manager, whom previously ran the rather more modest Borough Parade in Chippenham, which he tried to cite specific instances of as a comparison. Unfortunately for him, I live in Chippenham and I am know more about the place than he does.
Last year he was at Eagles Meadow in Wrexham.
www.eagles-meadow.co.uk/
uk.linkedin.com/pub/simon-pullen/15/17/879
He works for DTZ, the property management company.
www.dtz.com
INSURANCE
For highly visible novelty street performers and advertisers such as myself (but not protestors, whom they couldn't stop if they tried) he fell back on the insurance excuse.
Public liability insurance (about £50 a year) could squish that argument, but since it isn't a legal requirement for pedestrians on public property, it's an unnecessary expense.
As usual he failed to distinguish between the possibility of what someone misinformed believes what might happen, and the likelihood of it actually happening, or if it has ever happened.
For example, a little while back there was a panic among local authorities that people might be injured by falling conkers. My GP, who keeps up-to-date with the Lancet etc says there have been no reports of anybody ever being injured by one. So if anyone ever got hit, they didn't think it serious enough to seek medical attention. But do the councils research this? Of course not.
As well as this, it is not easy to sue someone in this country. You have to pay costs, typically a 6-figure sum, go to the High Court, and win the case, to get a payout, and if you sue someone who doesn’t have any money, you don’t get anything, and you still have to pay costs. So fears of being sued are unfounded.
This is the main reason I did not secure permission for myself - but then again he does not enjoy a monopoly on crowds in bath.
OTHER SHOPPING CENTRES
He expressed surprise that I had not encountered similar problems in Cabot Circus, Borough Parade, Borough Fields, Cardiff, etc. Swindon’s central shopping area is on public rights of way and although they try to object, they don’t have a leg to stand on there. I can’t exactly sneak in to these places. In Bristol I encountered dozens of security guys, and all of them were friendly; none raised any objection. Infact, I only found out Cabot Cir. Was private at all though this flickr forum.
BUSKERS
Buskers he is NOT against, but he does want them to contact him beforehand.
At the moment he cites a problem with vacant lots and the still-opening bits he thinks pitches would move around as a result, implying he wants to assign permanent pitches to specific buskers in future, which won't suit occasional performers, as are the majority.
Cafe's will be opening later, and they will invite musicians in and to perform outside their premises, which is probably where the public performance area comes in.
To be fair, we agreed that these are early days and we're all still adjusting to this new space. Hardly anyone has approached him directly so far.
CONTACT
To arrange an "a quick ten minute" appointment with Simon Pullen's secretary, phone 01225 469061, or call in to his office, or ask one of the omnipresent security guys, or (like I did) the cleaner. The entrance to his office is between New Look's 1000th store and the car park exit, opposite McDonalds on Southgate Street.
www.southgatebath.com/contact-us.aspx
Simon J Pullen
General Manager
Charles Barratt
Deputy General Manager
Management Suite
SouthGate Bath
12 Southgate Street
Bath BA1 1AR
Posted 30 months ago.
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Thanks Robin. I've not had a response yet.
Buskers he is NOT against, but he does want them to contact him beforehand.
So why then are buskers being turned away rather then being told "come and have a chat with the manager and see if he'll give you permission"
I'll contact him myself to ask
And dependant upon the answer write a letter to The Chronicle and contact some 'on-side' Councillors. Public petition too if necessary.
Posted 30 months ago.
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(Christ, that was a sharp winter.)
Perhaps another option to pursue would be getting the council not to adopt/buy the streets, but to designate new rights of way down them. Then the SG Centre would still own the fabric of them and be free to repave them etc, but be obliged to respect the right of people to walk down them instead of saying things like "we do not class you as a consumer".
Posted 24 months ago.
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be obliged to respect the right of people to walk down them instead of saying things like "we do not class you as a consumer".
Have people been told off for using the SG streets as a thoroughfare? I didn't know about this - what was the situation?
Posted 24 months ago.
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Just to bring this up to date w.r.t buskers, they are now welcome but need to book in advance. Thanks robin and others for your efforts and Multi / DHZ for listening :-)
19 May 2010
On Thursday 20th May the main square in SouthGate Bath opens, and we are looking for quality buskers to perform there.
Performance slots need to be booked in advance, and you can do this by calling Louise Maggs on 01225 469061or by emailing her at louise.maggs@southgatebath.com.
Posted 22 months ago.
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